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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#231

Post by _nalply »

tharkun__ wrote: post #216
nibbleshifter wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its also not legal in Germany, in fact, its pretty impossible to legally give a bad reference. HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad reference, they will simply confirm that yes, you worked there. Nothing else.

Are reference letters no longer done in Germany? When I was there that was how this was done. Basically you would always get a reference letter when ending employment. The reference letter's language always sounds good, as in not giving a bad reference. However, a reference letter that states things like "employee X delivered his tasks on time and to the satisfaction of work standards" basically means that he's a sla…

Yes, this was a thing already thirty years ago. There's even a term for them: coded reference letters. I even got a reference letter explicitly declaring that it doesn't contain hidden codes.

https://www.arbeitszeugnis.de/presse/geheimcodeliste.pdf (German)

This shows that there's a conflict: law forbids to discriminate someone with a bad review of their capability, motivation or fitness. But people always seem to try to work around this prohibition. Like giving a friendly declaration that someone worked at a company if they weren't impressed and give an enthusiastic recommendation in the other case.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#232

Post by matsemann »

phpisthebest wrote: post #210
croes wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like paying schools from taxes and never have kids, or paying fire fighters and your house never burns. It's called society.

Well I would prefer they send me a bill directly for fire services monthly, like water instead of having it obfuscated in general taxation. I prefer user fees not taxation. as for schools, to the extent I support their funding (which is more limited than I suspect you do) it is generally ethically justified because I too attended schools paid for by taxation, so in that manner I paying off a debt vs paying for others…

Well, my parents got parental leave for me and my brother. Which I think I benefited from.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#233

Post by phpisthebest »

Jochim wrote: post #229
phpisthebest wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many public finance options to fund society in more equal way than taking a persons labor. If there is anything akin to "wage slavery" in modern times it is more because of income tax than anything else Personal I am supporter of the Henry George Single Tax model to fund society instead of income based taxation

Personally I think the only problem with current taxes is the primitive nature of the bands in most cases and that non-labour income is often taxed far less heavily. Progressive taxation is our most effective tool for ensuring that a few people don't end up owning everything. For those of us who end up wealthier than the rest it's the price you pay for society providing you with a healthy, educated workforce, currenc…

Well that leads to another problem, because I do not equate government with "society" nor do I believe government is the only, or best way for society to provide " a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc. "

In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#234

Post by formerkrogemp »

pridkett wrote: post #193
licebmi__at__ wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I worked on a company with a performance program (I can really remember the exact euphemism), in which all new employees were supposed to take part when joining, and then if marked as low performer go through it again, with a neat addition... random employees were also selected to go through it again just because.

That’s not that terrible idea - it removes some of the stigma and potentially helps ensure the program provides value rather than just being a checkbox on the way to termination.

It's still a checkbox used during termination.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#235

Post by galangalalgol »

O__________O wrote: post #174

From Glassdoor for related employer: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Chetu-Reviews-E231082.htm >> Review: “You'll discover during training week that the the company will watch over you all day, even long tenured employees are watched via their WebCam.” >> “Glassdoor Alert: Attempt to Inflate Reviews — We have evidence that someone has taken steps to artificially inflate the rating for this employer with positive re…

Between this, and them shuttering any official EU accounts or presence after the award, I really foubt they will pay the award, and it seems unlikely they were contributing or collecting any taxes related to the employment.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#236

Post by mjan22640 »

hallway_monitor wrote: post #199
marvin wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it also work to just make everything cheaper for everyone? Housing has increased so much in cost that I wouldn't be surprised that just having housing back to 1980s price levels would give most families enough breathing room with just unpaid leave.

Better yet, shouldn't we just make everything free for everyone? Housing costs are outrageous. It would be great if houses were free. And food too. And cars and clothing. I guess the only problem is then everyone's wage would have to be $0 as well.

The automation is going to bring that relatively soon.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#237

Post by arlort »

phpisthebest wrote: post #135
brabel wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite honestly, if anything, I think we (and I truly mean nearly everyone here) in the EU have far more than necessary to have a decent life and doing anything more "business savy" would not have any positive effect on our lives at all. Yes, maybe we could make a little bit more money by being more business crazy, but what's the point if you get nothing you actually desire in return?

This is one of the culture differences between the US and EU for alot of people (though this is changing in the US) Personally I value my "work". That is not to say I value my efforts for my employer which makes this hard to explain. I do not find value is laying around, vacationing, sports, or any other traditional "leisure" activity. I like to work So even when I am not "working" for pay for my employer, I am still…

> I am going a personal coding project, or working on my home, or working on my car, or working in some other way

That's not working, that's having hobbies (and it's a good thing)

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#238

Post by jupp0r »

galangalalgol wrote: post #235
O__________O wrote: post #174

From Glassdoor for related employer: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Chetu-Reviews-E231082.htm >> Review: “You'll discover during training week that the the company will watch over you all day, even long tenured employees are watched via their WebCam.” >> “Glassdoor Alert: Attempt to Inflate Reviews — We have evidence that someone has taken steps to artificially inflate the rating for this employer with positive re…

Between this, and them shuttering any official EU accounts or presence after the award, I really foubt they will pay the award, and it seems unlikely they were contributing or collecting any taxes related to the employment.

IANAL, but the person terminated would probably have some pretty good arguments in a US based lawsuit. More money to be awarded by the court in case he wins too.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#239

Post by isodev »

phpisthebest wrote: post #212
isodev wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are not charities created to employ people. And employees are not charities for their employers! If you can't afford the staff needed for a given task, perhaps you should pivot to something else.

Right you are paid X currency for X labor. How is paying employees to sit at home not working anything other than charity/

It’s because when you hire employees they come with the aspect of being “people”. People work to live, they don’t live to work.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#240

Post by Twirrim »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #202
sebazzz wrote: post #36

I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.

> I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws. This is the first time I've heard of any US company requiring an employee to keep a camera on themselves 9 hours per day. Obviously, that's not some standard US company practice. I wouldn't be surprised if these same practices would fail in a US court.

It's been coming up a lot, especially since the pandemic started. Sadly this isn't an extreme example.
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