Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times • Hacker News Board

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#231

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:37 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #221

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might take into consideration rapid rise in ratings, and even this chess.com report, but please, this argument about post game interview is pure nonsense. It is not a 'tell' in the slightest. Any player with at least IM title will give you a decent analysis of that position if he wants , and Niemann is certainly better than IM even without alleged computer help. He was visibly disinterested in the interview and it…

It’s definitely evidence just not very strong evidence on it’s own. Combined with a history of cheating and a few other tells and things look rather damming.

It is not an evidence at all. Things look rather damning only if you are already biased.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#232

Post by stripykitteh » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:42 PM UTC

spuz wrote: post #184

Madmallard wrote: post #55

How is this person like at all able to even compete over the board? Seems like this type of history and even a history of cheating at all should just be a permanent nix.

He is a genuinely very good player. That also makes it potentially very hard to detect if he has indeed cheated. His current coach has been quoted in a past interview saying how easy it would be to cheat undetected if you were already at GM level. You only need the engine to guide you in 2-3 moves to swing a game. 2013 Interview with Max Dlugy: https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-shoe-aistant--ivanov-forfe... Also, bef…

True, in pro cycling over the last few decades it became almost mandatory (unless you were phenomenally gifted) to take PEDs in order to be able to compete.

The difference between being in a top team and a lower ranked team is measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars. Riders who spent 10-15 years of their childhood training to be a pro were faced with a difficult choice - cheat and realize your dream, or stay clean and walk away from the sport.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#233

Post by rys » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:44 PM UTC

Do we know how he cheated in the in-person over the board games? That’s the most fascinating aspect of the story now.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#234

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

MAXPOOL wrote: post #19

The next 'move' for cheaters is to use chess computers in a way that passes 'Chess Turing Test' and makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. When there is money in the game, there is incentive to cheat. > The report says dozens of grandmasters have been caught cheating on the website, including four of the top-100 players in the world who confessed. There are probably smart cheaters alr…

[deleted]

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#235

Post by klwww » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #190

somenameforme wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheat detection isn't done by only by move analysis, but by an extensive profiling of a person and games based on many factors beyond even just the moves. For instance one of the easiest ways to catch a weak player cheating is move times. Such a player will have no idea whether a move is trivial or works only due to an exceptionally precise and lengthy series of counter-intuitive calculations that no human could do w…

> Niemann was playing without any significant effort or tension, in spite of playing in a game where he was outplaying the world champion. Carlsen was making mistakes. That wasn't his best game at all. Are we sure we aren't talking of this because someone's ego was hurt? > And after the game he was unable to explain his own ideas, proposed ideas that were simply losing, That doesn't mean anything at all > referenced…

This is exactly right and confirmed by at least 20 GMs as well as Regan.

But once something is leaked to the WSJ, people believe it and downvote based on "authority". Which is why the leak occurred just before the US championships for maximum impact.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#236

Post by pclmulqdq » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:47 PM UTC

nawgz wrote: post #194

throwawaysleep wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I constantly cheated in school. I got caught once and the penalty was a 0 on the test and a talking to. And only because I was a cheating noob. The benefits were in the thousands and thousands of scholarship dollars. I cheat now in my employment. I work three full time jobs remotely and do the bare minimum in each. The risk is getting fired (and if I only get fired from two of the jobs, I am still ahead o…

> I work three full time jobs remotely and do the bare minimum in each I always wonder what the expected value on this strategy is. I'm a naive sucker, so I have worked my ass off at my job, and I have had 250% salary growth in 5 years at it. Maybe that's standard if you're job hopping. Do you ever get raises? Do these jobs actually pay over 33% of the best job you could get? Would it be more stressful to juggle this…

Most people do not get meaningful raises without moving to new companies. Google, Amazon, and others also often have a compensation cliff at year 4 if you don't get a promotion by year 2-3.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#237

Post by kcplate » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:49 PM UTC

jayski wrote: post #49

jrm4 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? I completely didn't understand this part? In pretty much everything else, you cheat, you're basically done.

I'm not a fan of this player, I don't even play chess. Still it sounds a bit harsh to me that a child that cheated online can never in his adult life participate in chess tournaments. If he had cheated as an adult I would have a different opinion.

His past cheating AND the statistical anomalies related to his fast progress may also be explained by cheating in an Occam’s Razor sort of way is what is raising the flags.

I don’t care one way or the other, but I’d assume the worst.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#238

Post by klwww » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:49 PM UTC

chesscom wrote: post #144

There is so much more to our report than what was focused on in the WSJ article. The full report will be shared shortly…

Will readers of the report be tracked for suspicious viewing patterns?

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#239

Post by permo-w » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:49 PM UTC

Version467 wrote: post #7

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #3

It's important to note that the investigation was conducted by chess.com, which is hardly an impartial authority in the matter.

How aren't they impartial? They are obviously an interested party, but do they have an incentive to skew the facts? If so in which direction? Not doubting you, just genuinely interested.

I would say that more than relationships with Magnus, chess.com are not impartial in the same way that the tabloid press are not impartial. controversy -> attention -> money. I bet their brand recognition is through the fucking roof after being in international news and spread all over tiktok for a couple of weeks

this isn't to say that I don't think Niemann cheated. I think he probably did, just that chess.com is getting great publicity from all this and it would be un-shocking for them to want to string it out a bit longer. it would be poor business not to, in fact

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#240

Post by msbarnett » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 11:51 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #182

selfmodruntime wrote: post #22

The fact that an athlete in a competitive sport was allowed to partake in an event even after admitting to cheating not only once, but twice, is outrageous in itself.

I'm slightly confused about the relationship between chess.com and these tournaments. If he gets caught cheating at a FIDE tournament, they could do whatever they want -- ban him for life, whatever, it is up to them. If he gets caught cheating on an online game, whether it is chess.com or counterstrike, who cares? It is an unranked online game (or the ranking is tied to some account gamerscore thing). Unless their ch…

> If he gets caught cheating on an online game, whether it is chess.com or counterstrike, who cares?

Chess.com isn’t the yahoo chess web app or whatever, there’s more at stake there than “gamerscore”. Some of these 100 games were in online tournaments for cash prizes.

Just because it wasn’t a FIDE run tournament doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter or that no one cares. The chess.com Pro Chess League they suggest he cheated in 12 games of had a $100,000 prize fund.