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Senior engineers are living in the future

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231–240 of 241 posts

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#231
> For those with the structural advantage of frontrunning the flow of information to the team, it is literally effortless to accidentally cultivate the impression of being some kind of wizard

As someone more junior, I've already seen this and realized what was up and I absolutely hate it.

In many cases there is literally no reason other than seniority that people can't do things. If you gave the same information access to a capable junior or mid level eng they would be able to solve these problems, write the document, etc but that doesn't happen because it's not explicitly part of your role.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#232

> For those with the structural advantage of frontrunning the flow of information to the team, it is literally effortless to accidentally cultivate the impression of being some kind of wizard As someone more junior, I've already seen this and realized what was up and I absolutely hate it. In many cases there is literally no reason other than seniority that people can't do things. If you gave the same information acce…

As a junior engineer: ask for this kind of work! A good manager will be receptive to requests to work on things outside of the role you've been assigned, whether it's for career advancement/cross-functional knowledge/interest.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#233

> For those with the structural advantage of frontrunning the flow of information to the team, it is literally effortless to accidentally cultivate the impression of being some kind of wizard As someone more junior, I've already seen this and realized what was up and I absolutely hate it. In many cases there is literally no reason other than seniority that people can't do things. If you gave the same information acce…

As a junior engineer: ask for this kind of work! A good manager will be receptive to requests to work on things outside of the role you've been assigned, whether it's for career advancement/cross-functional knowledge/interest.

It's not that easy. I can't ask for things I don't know about, and extremely often work is assigned far before I know anything about it.

My manager also has to balance what work to give to which person. It's very unlikely he's going to give me the opportunity to do high level work like synthesizing information, writing a design doc, etc and even if he does I'm at a structural disadvantage compared to someone who has full access to information.

I know from talking to the PM, more senior engineers on my team and sometimes my manager that this structural information advantage is real because they often talk about things I have never heard of, but they have been involved with for a long time.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#234
I've been told on one contract that my style was off-putting and making others on the team feel like nothing was ever good enough... at the _same time_ as a team on a second, parallel contract couldn't get enough of my time and thanked me profusely for helping them out of the hole they dug and teaching them to get better.

It's all about attitude and egos. There are devs who call themselves senior who are theoretically proficient coders, but who lack the "street smarts" of how to develop a useful product, and how to architect it well.

The person with 10y+ more experience is going to run circles around them. Not because they can crank out code faster, or with fewer bugs, but simply because they can do a lot more with a lot less, and they can contextualize what they code in terms of what the business is going to need 3-6-12 months down the line.

As a junior you can either be resentful and try to compete from afar (job A), or you can realize you had access to a wealth of knowledge and experience that can give you a multi-year headstart on your peers (job B). Choose wisely.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a junior engineer: ask for this kind of work! A good manager will be receptive to requests to work on things outside of the role you've been assigned, whether it's for career advancement/cross-functional knowledge/interest.

It's not that easy. I can't ask for things I don't know about, and extremely often work is assigned far before I know anything about it. My manager also has to balance what work to give to which person. It's very unlikely he's going to give me the opportunity to do high level work like synthesizing information, writing a design doc, etc and even if he does I'm at a structural disadvantage compared to someone who has…

It's not easy, but still something you can try to work on with your manager. It's possible that he's not doing this work himself, although he really probably should–in that case, you're going to have to pick up the slack. Part of management is being receptive to opportunities that allow your junior engineers to grow. Sure, it might take the senior two days while it takes you a month, but if he keeps assigning you simple tasks there's no room to let you actually advance to being a senior yourself. And that's just a bad way to run a team.

The best way I have found to bridge the information gap is to actively bring it up during your 1:1s. Managers typically have an idea of what you "need to know" that is based on their idea of your current task. It's not always accurate and they may not always be able to see why from their vantage point. "I was working on project X and ended up being blindsided by changes from team Y, which blocked me for a week" is a really strong argument that you should perhaps be included in meetings with team Y. "I hear you and the team lead talking about our stack for Z a lot, I'm not really familiar with that. Can you tell me more about what's going on with it/can I get some time to work with it to get up to speed/where can I get information on it?" can help start a conversation on something you've just heard about. Keep abreast of "rumors" of where various teams are going and see if they have mailing lists or other places where they post general information for "stakeholders" (of which you are not, but often these are digests for people–often upper management–who are not fully familiar with the team, which would is useful for you too).

Of course, this requires work from your side, probably on top of your existing duties. Ideally you have a manager who is sympathetic to such efforts for the reasons I outlined above. A two-way communications channel is key. It's always possible that he'll tell you to keep your head down and that this stuff is "above your paygrade" but there's really not much you can do about a manager who is bad at his job ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#236
post #128

Oh God. No. "Ensure that you are fulfilling the expectations of your manager" Please please do not assume your manager is any good at their job. Talk to your users. Find a way to identify them and get feedback from them. Keep your manager in the loop sure. But don't wait for requirements to come down from on high. "Every step up in job title is equivalent to living perhaps 1–2 days further into the future." No. If an…

The military also has a peculiar behavior of punishing leadership for failures instead of promoting them or giving them a golden parachute. Telling engineers to fulfill the expectations of their managers is more of survival advice. Granted this does not hold for 1) small startups where everyone has influence on the direction of the product and bureaucracy hasn't taken hold yet, and 2) FAANGS for the most part appear…

The US Army in WWII is known for moving and reassigning top ranking generals - failure was more a case of "you failed at amphibious landings in Pacific but now go do Air cover in Europe."

But in general I feel if you want people to take risks for you, it's best that you pay them so much they stop having worries at home and just have worries at work. Executing people for failure looks like it gets results, but often it just gets results hidden

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone makes it to senior As a someone who isn't a junior, having two years of game development (in-house game engine dev) and five years of enterprise (mostly web-based internal tools & some data engineering with big data) development under my belt, but hardly a senior either, what do you think as the alternative to not "making it to senior"? Asking out of curiosity.

Being in the "optimal zone" I think. The best dollar-value-to-expectations is probably at the mid-level. Senior+ you take on a lot more responsibility, need to know a lot more, and you're not always compensated for all that knowledge. Having been at senior and above for a while now I can say that the juice isn't always worth the squeeze. Nothing is wrong with optimizing for actual life things. It's hard to not be a c…

Note that this can make employment in your 50's and 60's more difficult though, even if it shouldn't.

Also, I once worked for a military contractor and one of the lead engineers told me the company valued people who wanted to remain engineers instead of moving into management. It was the path he'd followed himself as one of the founders of the company. I believed him and avoided management, only to find eventually that there was no such path to becoming a senior engineer who did no management. So I quit, which caused me a lot of trouble, but it also denied the company the benefit of many years of my learning on the job (there are few ways to prepare for a career in top secret military contracting because you have to get a clearance first before you can start studying many of the things they work on, so a trained employee is much more valuable than in many other jobs.) The senior engineer had the right idea, but he'd never actually checked that his career path was viable for anyone who was not a founder. I think this is a mistake that many companies make, essentially forcing people into management. It is very similar to the idea behind the "Peter Principle", that people rise until they reach their level of incompetence and then remain there. Engineers rise until they are forced into management and have to stop doing what they do best.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#238
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military also has a peculiar behavior of punishing leadership for failures instead of promoting them or giving them a golden parachute. Telling engineers to fulfill the expectations of their managers is more of survival advice. Granted this does not hold for 1) small startups where everyone has influence on the direction of the product and bureaucracy hasn't taken hold yet, and 2) FAANGS for the most part appear…

The US Army in WWII is known for moving and reassigning top ranking generals - failure was more a case of "you failed at amphibious landings in Pacific but now go do Air cover in Europe." But in general I feel if you want people to take risks for you, it's best that you pay them so much they stop having worries at home and just have worries at work. Executing people for failure looks like it gets results, but often i…

As opposed to execs getting rewarded no matter what so they can be open about their failures that they won’t resolve.

There is a point to not executing people for failures so that information isn’t hidden but when “not getting paid massive amounts of compensation” is equivalent to execution I think you’re going to have the same bad behaviors.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#240
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You would probably not want someone with little experience in given language, to touch production codebase without review I wouldn't want anyone, in any language, with any level experience to touch production codebase without review. Not even K&R themselves. So that's a ridiculous straw man.

Yet it happens in many companies, when team is working on non-critical systems or in extreme cases, even on critical systems. I sometimes feel like some people in IT are detached from reality, not everything is mission critical system and not everything has high quality, because there's a lot of people in IT with all kind of background and there all kind of clients with different sets of requirements. It's business,…

I don't want your attitude at my business.

Everyone makes mistakes. And code review is also about knowledge sharing and avoiding single points of failure in staffing.

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