Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes • Hacker News Board

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#231

Post by Tangurena2 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

nlzoperand wrote: post #12

I wonder why everyone focuses on electronic communication and wearable devices. There are tons of acoustic side channels if an accomplice watches the live stream outside of the playing venue. Set up construction site and use a hammer just loud enough to be just barely heard from the inside. Bird sounds, music, the possibilities are endless. Very few bits of information need to be transmitted for the best three moves.

At least one participant in Who Wants To Be A Millionaire cheated by having an accomplice in the audience coughing.

https://millionaire.fandom.com/wiki/Coughing

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#232

Post by whimsicalism » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #172

fzliu wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good catch. I was searching for a game without Nf3, but this is effectively a transposition. One minor point folks aren't mentioning that I think works in Neimann's favor - Carlsen is known for enjoying the Catalan, and the opening in the game was essentially a Nimzo/Catalan hybrid. This fact makes Neimann's supposed pre-game prep a bit more palatable. Everything else (postgame interview, past history, Twitter antics…

You could stick the computer in your shoe, like the submission suggests? Or you could swallow a buzzer? The input could come from someone who watches the board from afar?

They metal detected & RF frequency detect before the round 4 match.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#233

Post by nsv » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:19 PM UTC

veidelis wrote: post #217

sharedfrog wrote: post #3

This is relevant to today's events because Magnus Carlsen just withdrew from a tournament[1] after yesterday's loss to a significantly lower rated opponent who had previously been suspended for cheating on chess.com. The tournament organizers have also implemented additional anti-cheating protocols starting today. Whatever comes out of these accusations, the chess world will sure enjoy its new infusion of drama. [1]…

I don't understand why a GM would need to explain some of his moves precisely and with a deep understanding of the position as some commentators here point out. Why is that so indicative of cheating? It's known that classical chess has a lot of theory, and Hans himself admits that he checked an engine line the evening before the game. So what? Here's the quote: " I didn’t guess it, but by some miracle I checked this…

What people are speculating is that Magnus' prep got leaked to Hans leading to him researching this line. Of course just speculation, no hard proof. I tend to be of the mindset of "innocent until proven guilty".

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#234

Post by joshuamorton » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #184

joshuamorton wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's from a line that ultimately wasn't entered into in the game, but Hans mentioned to Alireza in the postgame. So it's a position that Hans should have considered during the game. He claims it's obviuosly winning for white. It isn't, and Hikaru is ~immediately able to see that the position is (significantly) losing for white.

> Hikaru is ~immediately able to see that the position is (significantly) losing for white. Hikaru could have followed the game with an automatic engine evaluation, that would make it 'slightly' easier for him to '~immediately' evaluate the position with better precision. You are comparing a tired guy answering the questions on the spot to a person who could have had all the computer help in the world (and they do wh…

Yes hikaru could have, but he didn't, if you watch the stream. He doesn't have engine analysis on while hes looking at lines. It's off the cuff analysis without engine help.

Like compare hans to alireza in their interviews. Hans clearly just has a worse understanding of the position he chose to go into.

I mean to me it feels less like cheating and more like just absolutely wild prep, hans played like a 3200 up to the midgame and then couldn't convert a winning position, but it's suspicious to have such completely insane prep, especially without clear compensation

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#235

Post by bluecalm » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

searealist wrote: post #86

threatofrain wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the accusation is that the sum of signals doesn't look good.

It's binary. Either he did cheat today or he did not. If he did not then who cares what his post analysis looks like after drawing the #4 player in the world and being +3 at some point. The only reasonable analysis is to declare him a cheater today or discard the interview. To say that the interview would point to him cheating vs Magnus but not today is nonsense.

The event might be binary but our knowledge isn't. You may think he is likely cheating but you're not sure. You won't declare him a cheater but you will be suspicious.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#236

Post by bluecalm » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:51 PM UTC

ivalm wrote: post #122

icambron wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is right. The idea seems to be that his post-game interview shows he didn’t understand the positions very well despite playing them accurately, so he may have cheated. But a) today there was a huge amount of extra security and specific scrutiny on him, b) he drew despite having a substantial advantage at one point, and c) a bad interview where he fumbled some stuff would be a nothing-burger if it h…

I agree that he probably did not cheat vs firouzja. Even vs Carlson my money is at most the line magnus wanted to play somehow got leaked. It’s hard to imagine getting live engine support otb at a modern tournament.

Why is it hard to imagine? It's easy to imagine him getting signals from the audience for example which can be done in multiple ways. I am not up to date with the state of metal/RFID detectors but simplistic ones they use at chess tournaments are probably possible to game as well.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#237

Post by Balgair » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

weare138 wrote: post #106

Neat. Reminds me of the hidden shoe computers developed by Claude Shannon and Ed Thorp in 1960 for cheating at roulette. https://nautil.us/claude-shannon-the-las-vegas-cheat-6397 J. Doyne Farmer and Norman Packard from UC Santa Cruz also developed one in the late 70s as part of a group called The Eudaemons. http://physics.ucsc.edu/people/eudaemons/layout.html

go slugs!

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#238

Post by FartyMcFarter » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

grog454 wrote: post #64

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #59

If one really wanted to cheat with a computer, I imagine it would be better to only carry around enough hardware to communicate wirelessly with it, rather than the whole thing. This would be harder to detect as the amount of hardware would be much smaller, and it would allow using a more powerful computer.

How do you prevent the detection of that communication?

Does one need to? What kind of radio detection do chess tournaments deploy, and do perform it constantly around every player?

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#239

Post by FartyMcFarter » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #232

eru wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could stick the computer in your shoe, like the submission suggests? Or you could swallow a buzzer? The input could come from someone who watches the board from afar?

They metal detected & RF frequency detect before the round 4 match.

RF detection before a match seems useless, unless the device is in constant communication.

I don't know enough about those devices and metal detectors to be able to tell whether that's effective mitigation. Could one make a device small enough to be hard to detect?

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#240

Post by joshuamorton » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #91

hackingthenews wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from reading about chess engines online is that drawing is far simpler if that is your explicit goal. Several comments online on different websites claims that they are able to end games in draws against stockfish.

I'd humbly suggest that those anonymous comments put up or shut up.

There are various videos you can see of strong players forcing draws against stockfish (or engine cheaters online etc.). The general way to do it is to trade everything but rooks and then force a very closed position. Then you shuffle for 50 moves or until contempt makes the computer sacrifice material.