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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#231

Post by labcomputer »

Goz3rr wrote: post #195
Animats wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side. Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT…

> Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox

Actually, Tesla outsourced the transmission, first to Bosch then to Borg-Warner. Apparently neither of them could design and build a suitable gearbox.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#232

Post by jac_no_k »

Animats wrote: post #175
hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

Nissan Leaf with it's single pedal setup is like a driving a car in 2nd gear, where the speed can go down to zero and accelerate all the way up to highway speeds.

In single pedal mode, slowing down to a stop is a lifting the accelerator pedal completely and it will come to a stop in predictable manner. The brake pedal adds more regen and stronger application applies the brakes itself. From a stop, pushing down the accelerator starts moving the car. On hills, there is brake assist and works without any drama. Operating in reverse is the same way.

In dual pedal mode, or classic operations. While under motion, lifting the accelerator has a bit of regen until about 7kph and then creeps forward. To come to a complete stop, the brake pedal is necessary. From a stop, lifting the brake pedal starts the creep forward. This being an electric, even on inclines, the creep forward is consistent. Reverse is the same way.

At slow speeds, ie parking, it is easier to have the creep mode. Controlling speed with the brake pedal feels better. However, with experience, single pedal slow speed works well, just have to feather the throttle.

I've set the car to default to two pedal setup on start. I hit the single pedal mode switch every time I'm driving. It works well in a shared car setup. I do find it more weird to now drive with two pedals, but using the brakes still comes up even with single pedal driving, so if I do "forget" which mode I'm in, I'll still use the brakes when the car isn't slowing down enough.

Regarding the simulated legacy behavior, ie rolling back on the hill or changing torque. This is in the same line as simulating gearing in a CVT and simulating engine noise. I don't find it appealing and do hope car manufacturers have it as a configurable item, like Nissan has done with the one pedal driving. Here in a Japan, even the noise generator to warn pedestrians can be turned off.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#233

Post by ultrarunner »

xxs wrote: post #74
ultrarunner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AC clocks can sync their motors to the grid frequency, making it another perfectly valid mechanism of counting time. The grid frequency is very consistent.

>The grid frequency is very consistent. This is not true. It does change a bit under heavy load and the req. to keep it constant are far from perfect. There are timers that use the AC freq. but they are far from precise compared to a quartz crystal oscillator ones. A low effort [0] stackexchange search. [0]: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/57878/how-pr...

I don't exactly keep up on these things, but at one time off-peak frequency compensation was done specifically to keep AC-synchronous clocks accurate. I wouldn't be surprised to find that's not really done anymore.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#234

Post by whaleofatw2022 »

lokedhs wrote: post #168
detaro wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any examples of cars where that's the case?

The Kia Niro is available in three models: Petrol, Hybrid and EV. Now, I have the EV and it doesn't have any gears, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of things shared between these cars.

To your point, the Niro hybrid IIRC does still use a 6 speed transmission as opposed to something like a Prius, or Fusion. Those use an eCVT (much simpler planetary gearset to control power flow between ICE, electric motor, and the wheels.)

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#235

Post by red369 »

lm28469 wrote: post #46
superchroma wrote: post #20

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea

On the other hand, pedestrians relying on hearing a car coming is a nightmare for cyclists.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#236

Post by quintushoratius »

kcexn wrote: post #227
davewritescode wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the highway. One of the most disappointing things about the Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There’s large stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what’s an easy task for a gas car means ad…

Constant speeds on the highway should be the most efficient forms of driving. The only force the motors need to generate is the force required to overcome air resistance, this is going to be true of both ICE and electric. The range dip may instead be because of lower battery temperatures (from all of the wind). Better battery thermal management at high speeds might help. Higher energy density batteries will also comf…

To the contrary, the dip in range highlights that, as you increase speed, air resistance rises as a square.

Our Leaf could probably go almost 50% farther on a charge if we never exceeded 30 mph. 30-40 mph has a small penalty; freeway speeds exact a much larger penalty.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#237

Post by zibby8 »

kcexn wrote: post #227
davewritescode wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the highway. One of the most disappointing things about the Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There’s large stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what’s an easy task for a gas car means ad…

Constant speeds on the highway should be the most efficient forms of driving. The only force the motors need to generate is the force required to overcome air resistance, this is going to be true of both ICE and electric. The range dip may instead be because of lower battery temperatures (from all of the wind). Better battery thermal management at high speeds might help. Higher energy density batteries will also comf…

Wind resistance increases with the square of speed so going faster than “normal” speed, i.e. the speed they use when calculating range, leads to dramatically less range.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#238

Post by poutine »

davewritescode wrote: post #193
poutine wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan). The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

The real problem with electric cars and modern cars in general in the snow is the sheer weight of the vehicles makes it harder to stop in an emergency. Most of the crummy AWD systems they throw in the majority of cars these days can get you unstuck or up a hill so that’s not a major advantage. Also, car makers tend to throw on low friction tires on electric cars to increase range which invites another set of problems…

With proper winter or all-weather tires you'll actually get better stopping for a heavier vehicle (the tires will have more friction as a function of the weight so less chance of slip even though you have more to stop).

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#239

Post by sangnoir »

zcw100 wrote: post #134

I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.

> It's like cosplay for cars

Exactly: a fun activity that's enjoyable to practitioners, and doesn't hurt those who do not partake of it. You wouldn't ban cosplaying if you had the power, would you?

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#240

Post by sangnoir »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #223
salmo wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car. But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree. If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in. Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style…

As a ADHD person, driving an EV is even more engaging, as you can precisely get the speed you want with your right foot. It’s amazing.

You precisely set speed using your right foot with a regular manual too!

I don't have an ADHD diagnosis, but coordinating 3 pedals, the steering wheel and the gear shift with both hands and both feet is unbeatable, sublime even, when you hit the power curves you were going for.

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