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A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

reneweconomy.com.au

231–240 of 365 posts

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#231
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to play that game here (France) we can made DIY p.v. systems, pass a consuel (third party organism for electrical safety) check and connect it to the grid BUT with only two mode, one is pure-self consumption you might just have few over-voltage rejects to the grid, the other is gifting the grid of your surplus and in this case you do not only give energy for free, energy consumed by some neighbor who pay…

You make it sound unfair, but from the point of view of EDF getting the power you generate in the grid is probably never profitable. If you're in excess it's probable other sources of renewable are peaking simultaneously, but the demand does not change. They have to lower the production of the nuclear plants which is not free. Otherwise there would be a surplus. And transport fees is actually reasonable, it's a lot m…

Yes most of the time, but not always: for instance during peak heat in summer most p.v. still produce more than the actual owner consumption while EDF have issues producing enough electricity since almost anyone have A/C full power and many NPP are offline due mostly to the decade old lack of investments/minimal maintenance of them for private profits. The same private profit that now get 10 billion € to sell the last private slice of EDF to the State, who will made the needed investments and probably give EDF back to the private sector once done and that's not enough they want to sue the State for lack of profits due to the maximum price roof (bouclier tarifaire) imposed till this year end...

TURPE fees is not expensive, true, and also EDF have issues keeping the frequency of the national grid with many p.v. systems on-line, true again, BUT the justification that EDF (energy production) and ERDF (energy distribution) are now two different companies and so while you gift the former you have to pay the latter is hard to digest... As a results many prefer zero injection even if means consuming a bit more from the grid.

Beside that consider a thing: the State made anything at start, NPPs, electricity grid, TLCs etc then sold them to the private sector at a very cheap price "to made quick evolution and lower prices", none of witch happen, instead happen the exact opposite. The private sector invest FAR LESS than the public and leave a mess as a result, than when things became really bad the State came back to sort out the mess at Citizens expense. What you call it?

Personally since the State now act with the famous "revolving doors" with the private sector I call it high treason for the public officers part, embezzlement and crimes against the State for the private part. To be a bit back on topic: I have invested in p.v. to guarantee my energy supply in case of blackouts, just for that because so far the investment is not really profitable, it would be without lithium storage but in that case I'll get no backup and the relevant profit is far little to justify the investment. Those who made profits are those who sell p.v. systems and all the energy giants, both "green" and "fossil". Me as a citizen get less wealthy to protect my comfort, less wealthy citizens can't protect themselves and to "compensate" those who can, also get far higher prices to be even more pushed to poverty, because that's the 2030/WEF target [1] is this fair? Is this "free market" since the enormous difference between the giant and the others?

Take just an example: in France few municipalities kept the water public, most go private. Mine is one of those who have remained public: I pay water a bit less than 1€/m³, the nearby municipality is with Veolia, get the water from the very same source of mine but people pay ~12€/m³. They also have leaks and service continuity issues we have not. Does suffice as example? Beside that since EDF is now 100% public it's target must be offering a service, not making profit, so why IF the target of the Green Deal is a Green Deal really for environmental reasons why not actively subsidize p.v.? And even more: https://www.economie.gouv.fr/files/files/directions_services... if the government itself publicly state that France can't now and can't in the foreseeable future going really on renewables what we are talking about? Some, interested or sponsored by interest parties, say that we are just an inch behind the ability to going fully on renewables while public bodies (and personal experiences) state the exact contrary... In the meantime energy prices artificially skyrocket to maximize some westerners speculators, those who have invested in the green deal barely get the investment paid back but are anyway far less wealthy and those who have not suffer from prize rise just more. I see ALL the ingredient of a SCAM and nothing about the technical feasibility of a new deal green in the environmental sense, instead I see one in the dollar main color sense and in the stereotypical chemio-radioactive waste spilling out of rusty barrels...

Try going further:

- new buildings needed to consume less enough to being able to heat and cool on heat-pumps only => private costs for the owners, profits just for those who sell heat pumps and ENR stuff, the break even of such new constructions surpass their operational life anyway;

- BEVs needed, integrated to homes electricity (a thing that's still not there, at least without any proper standard and again seems not that around the corner) who cost around the double of equivalent ICEs vehicles and again profits only for their OEMs;

- massive renewable installations who made the grid unstable to push people further investing in renewable, similarly with artificially skyrocketed energy prices => again profits only for the giants.

Non-giants just get breadcrumbs, in little compensation for their investments and continuity of services, who happen to be evidently artificial. Oh and of course, the pollution issue not resolved at all, just hidden since with the new deal polluting productions happen in exotic places so people do not see it, but globally is not different than pure fossil. Meanwhile just seeing https://app.electricitymap.org/map nuclear seems to be the only really green (to a certain extent) electricity source we have with the bonus of being perfectly stable. Yes I make it sound unfair. Because it is in general. And I was even very polite in using the term "unfair"...

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/s...

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#232
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On its own, it does seem like a lot. Thinking about the nature of renewables where I live, it seems so small as to be not worth mentioning; January will often have a week to several weeks of heavy cloud cover and little wind. A mere 5 hours of capacity is a pittance. Australia, on the other hand, could easily make more sense, as I imagine the outback to be sunnier year round and maybe windier.

What percentage of the population lives in climates like yours? If I had to guess, maybe something like 10-20% of the worlds population? My gut tells me the vast majority of the worlds population lives in locations that are more similar to Australia's climate than in climates like yours. So we start there, and overtime things get cheaper, we find better solutions to long duration storage, and then we start tackling t…

Many of the countries with climate similar to Australia do not have the purchasing power of most northern countries, so they're currently building new cold power at a rapid pace.

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to increase the amount of energy flowing through the grid, but there's plenty of excess grid capacity to accommodate that. The grid is a technological marvel, but one weakness about it is that it has never included storage except small amount of hydro (which I've heard some claim is because nuclear needed it so that the reactor could stay always on, but I have my doubts on that origin story) Without storag…

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered before. That said, I would think the net effect is still increased demand on the grid. If everyone buys an EV, I can't imagine that constitutes a net reduction in demand on the grid even if everyone charges off-peak (unless utilities can pull storage from those car batteries during peak hours, and I doubt car owners will want that kind of wear on their batteries). Do yo…

The most advanced modeling I know of is coming from Christopher Clack, whose latest models show that deploying lots of storage at the grid edge now will pave the way for much cheaper energy in the future. I thought this was more recent but it's 16 months old now:

https://xenetwork.org/ets/episodes/episode-146-why-local-sol...

Even if there are grid upgrades, getting a higher utilization factor, or more precisely, knocking off the highest peaks of demand, has huge cost savings on the grid size.

So as we shift spending away from fossil fuel, that money will be going to utilities which will allow them to do the grid upgrades.

Unfortunately utilities make the best profits on grid upgrades, so unless there are really good utility commissions, utilities will not be looking to decrease their grid investments or make grid utilization better, the are literally incentivized to make transmission and distribution costs as high as possible.

If you live in California and have PG&E check out how many times more they charge you to deliver a kWh than to generate it, and you'll be fairly shocked and annoyed at CPUC for having done such a terrible job of reigning in PG&E's management.

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered before. That said, I would think the net effect is still increased demand on the grid. If everyone buys an EV, I can't imagine that constitutes a net reduction in demand on the grid even if everyone charges off-peak (unless utilities can pull storage from those car batteries during peak hours, and I doubt car owners will want that kind of wear on their batteries). Do yo…

In engineering speak, what he means is increased grid efficiency, which can happen simultaneously with increased demand and increased cost. But all that does is shift the inefficiencies off of the grid. It's redefining the system boundary in a politically/ marketing friendly way, but doesn't eliminate the problem of storage/buffer capacity. Anyone who thinks the grid can approach steady-state operations near capacity…

> Anyone who thinks the grid can approach steady-state operations near capacity hasn't seriously looked at demand patterns

I think that's a bit of a straw man, the key thing is to reduce the peak, rather than get to steady state.

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#235
post #57

"in Australia" is an important qualification here. Australia has a very high ratio of available solar and wind energy to population. Not that getting Australia fully on renewables wouldn't be exciting. But it is definitely an easier target than say the US.

Quite a lot of people live in Texas and California where renewables are already pretty advanced, plus there's nuclear in the north, and they have hydro and grid connections with Canada who have even more hydro and nuclear so the USA should be easier. The US intends to hit this target (i.e. 95% carbon-free generation) in 8 years I think, with 100% and wider electrification of current fossil fuel uses in 2035 and it di…

Everybody leaves out Iowa when mentioning wind energy! Iowa and Oklahoma are both larger into wind that California.

https://windexchange.energy.gov/files/slideshows/wind-energy...

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australian energy prices doubled in the last 6 months. I'm not sure who would ever use the Australian market as a model, other than "under no circumstances follow suit".

The reason for that is because of high natural gas prices. And the reason that increases overall prices is because they are treated as a single purchase so renewable sources (who are obviously well aware of gas prices) push their prices up to match. This is so obviously a bad idea that even the CEO of a major energy firm has suggested the purchase market be split between renewable and fossil, so there are effectively…

It was the already the highest electricity price in the developed world before the start of the war.

You should learn about this stuff rather than parroting the renewable fanbook.

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australian energy prices doubled in the last 6 months. I'm not sure who would ever use the Australian market as a model, other than "under no circumstances follow suit".

Energy prices everywhere are up. That is what happens when the global economy is bouncing back from a pandemic and one of the biggest energy suppliers in the world decides to embark on the first major land war in Europe in over 70 years.

So you're saying Russia made sunshine more expensive?

Or did we secretly build nothing but gas power plants because renewable are so intermittent nothing else can be turned on and off fast enough, leading to rising electricity prices world wide even before the latest shock?

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#238
> My simulation used the 24GW/120GWh of assumed storage and existing hydro to firm up the wind and solar and match demand.

120 GWh is not what most would describe as "little storage". The largest hydroelectric storage facilities in existence are in the single digit or low double digit GWh. And this is for a country with a relatively small population.

> Both the hydro and storage were assumed highly flexible. Note that I did not use the actual hydro generation data. I completely changed the dispatch of hydro so that it had minimal generation on days when it wasn’t needed, and elevated levels whenever there was a day with significant shortfalls of wind and solar relative to demand.

This is also a big simplification. While dams can just totally shut off the flow of water downstream, this has big ecological impact and also impacts availability of water in population centers that draw from the river. Most dams always release a minimum amount of water to ensure the river never runs dry. Much of his simulation has dams bottling up water for long stretches of time.

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#239
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, people really underestimate how efficient HVDC has become. Even that doc is outdated - it was published in 2015 so likely based on 2013/2014 figures. Modern projects, e.g. ultra HVDC (1100KV) in China are seeing more like 1.5%/1,000KM losses: http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0622/c90000-9474097.html

Australia is ~4,000km wide, so ~6% - totally manageable if it is needed.

Curious to know the relative costs of HVAC vs battery per megawatt/hour offset from peak solar production.

4000 KMs east to west is about 2.4 hours offset geographically. Would it be cheaper to have 2.4 hours of storage closer to the east coast of Australia, with solar farms close to the consumption? Or would building a 4000km HVAC transmission line from the west coast of Australia to the east coast be cheaper? I'd imagine there would be a tipping point where one option is more economical than the other.

Personally, I'd like to see WA's electricity network connected through to SA, and connect SA's through to NSW, but I also like the idea of many independent microgrids for the resilancy they'd offer.

Re: A near 100% renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

#240
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swapping hydro from 24/7 power to a backup for wind and solar goes a long way to eliminate the need for storage. We don’t need more total kWh per year of hydro we need to be able to more flexibility get those kWh.

I am an engineer that works on hydro control systems - It's worth noting that a hydro turbine, depending on it's construction, has a certain turndown ratio - That ratio of it's full scale output to it's minimum output. At the turn of the century designers of these turbines did not particularly care about operating at a lot of different power output levels, they cared about maximizing power output at a particular poin…

I also work in hydro controls.

Apart from equipment limitations, most hydro plants I’ve been to have a river downstream and there are restrictions on how fast output can be changed and requirements for minimum flows. You can’t just stop the whole river to fill up the reservoir and release it later in the day

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