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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#231

Post by alok-g »

EarthLaunch wrote: post #197
alok-g wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to hear more on this. Am somewhat playing a devil's advocate, but am genuinely unclear too. What's the higher importance of the impact left on the world. As per the comment you replied to, it will ultimately be multiplied to zero for each one of us. That the impact may sustain in the 'living' world feels somewhat like a propagating wave, or may be even a Ponzi scheme. Looking from a grander scheme of thi…

That is a great way of describing that situation. Thank you for that. The answer to a lot of these questions seems to be "we don't know". In our age, there's a cultural trend of pretending we know things, or that everything is knowable. Of course, a lot of things aren't knowable. In actual reality, we function while not knowing . Uncertainty is the nature of existence. Practically every decision and experience is loa…

I largely agree. :-)

>> Uncertainty is the nature of existence.

This should be seen as an observation about our universe, not as some kind of law. Existence could have been without uncertainty also. Some of the debates during the older times were like that, as the laws of classical physics have been deterministic. Some people still argue that volition / consciousness links to the non-determinism of Quantum Mechanics.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#232

Post by keymon-o »

alok-g wrote: post #224
keymon-o wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the guy you were replying to. Why are we assuming any of the impact would be a drive to live and should be of importance to anyone? Isn't the reason why we live just steering through the unknown and finding what will happen next. Some do more and some do less to affect it, but people usually just wonder what will happen tommorow, what will be in a year, some what will be in 50 years. We only want to do something…

>> Isn't the reason why we live just steering through the unknown and finding what will happen next. That's the question the comment I replied to asked. What will (ultimately) happen next is that it will (may) all get multiplied by zero. What's exactly the point of steering through the unknown and finding what will happen next, when we know what's ultimately the next.

Good point, I've answered assuming different context.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#233

Post by BossingAround »

foobarian wrote: post #158
ne0flex wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the rational side of me thinks that death is probably oblivion, I just don't want to admit it. After a friend of mine passed away, I did a lot of soul searching and basically came to the conclusion that there's nothing after death. It was mentally destructive for me and sent me into a bout of depression. I'd hate to think that we're going through all this just to have your entire life multiplied by 0 at the end…

I concluded that, with high probability, there is life after death. Simple: 1. Current life is clearly possible (cogito ergo sum etc). 2. When this one ends, statistically it's inevitable there will be another one. See e.g. Boltzmann brain [1]. The pickle is that the timespan between 1 and 2 could be very long. But since you're not aware of it that doesn't matter. Also, the other pickle is you won't remember it, and…

1. and 2. are congruent. Where your thesis misses the mark is connecting 1. and 2. with your life after death.

In other words, assert 1. and 2., therefore the human race does not die out when I die.

But, assert 1. and 2., therefore my life will continue seems like a pretty big leap to me.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#234

Post by borroka »

One of my long-standing interests is hypnosis, and specifically hypnosis for anesthesia. I have been studying the “art of hypnosis” for more than 15 years, and I believe it is criminally understudied as a discipline and undervalued as a tool. Unfortunately, as has happened in other fields (think of electromedicine, for example), the discipline has been swamped by charlatans and people who think a ponytail can work like an antenna receiving signals from outer space. But the potential is there.

It is said that the Scottish surgeon James Esdaile performed tremendously invasive surgeries, for instance for testicular cancer, using no chemical anesthesia, and making use only of what is now called "deep hypnosis"-—that particular state of hypnosis is called "Esdaile state" among practitioners, and it was popularized by the late Gerry Klein. I formally studied hypnosis years ago with a former student of Klein’s. Although when reading Esdaile's biography he gives a certain “charlatanesque” vibe, "It is an objective matter of record that [...] James Esdaile, an Edinburgh-trained Scottish surgeon employed by the East India Company [..] performed 'pain-free' major surgery on more than 300 cases (amputations, removal of cataracts, removal of massive tumours)" [0].

Dave Elman, one of the most famous practitioners and popularizers of the medical approach to hypnosis, wrote a seminal book in the 1960s titled "Hypnotherapy". In it, he also talks about a very simple but apparently very effective approach to self-hypnosis, which is especially useful for anesthesia. Elman wrote (page 33 of his book) and could be heard saying the same in his medical tapes:

“I usually help myself establish autosuggestion by a cue word. I choose the word "green" because green, in my mind, is God's color. It connotes the pleasantest visions in the minds of the most people. Here are your instructions: Say the word green and close your eyes. Test for eye-closure. When you are sure you have eye-closure, use the symbol word "green" again, knowing that the instant you say it your suggestion will take full and complete effect. Then test to make sure that the suggestion has taken full effect. To release the eye muscles, say the word "green" once again, and your eyes will open. It takes about four seconds to anesthetize yourself. But you must practice. Autosuggestion is a priceless possession.”

In his tape recordings, he instructed the audience on the use of anesthesia through self-hypnosis and encouraged them to test anesthesia, not analgesia, using Allis clamps at the most painful settings: everyone who tried it felt no pain.

Isn’t that amazing?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Esdaile

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#235

Post by BossingAround »

nerdjon wrote: post #216
velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

I have to say, as someone who very much believes as you do (no after life or anything related). The idea of this kinda scares me? I have never been under anesthesia, but I have kinda accepted that at some point in the not too distant future I will likely need to be for my knees and/or carpal tunnel. But something about being under it basically being like experiencing death just, it reinforces those fears even more of…

The fear of not waking up is not necessary. When you do not wake up, no fear can exist.

It's usually the pain before dying people are scared of. That is an understandable fear, one that is commonly exploited by humans (e.g. torture).

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#236

Post by nerdjon »

Buttons840 wrote: post #230
nerdjon wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say, as someone who very much believes as you do (no after life or anything related). The idea of this kinda scares me? I have never been under anesthesia, but I have kinda accepted that at some point in the not too distant future I will likely need to be for my knees and/or carpal tunnel. But something about being under it basically being like experiencing death just, it reinforces those fears even more of…

Don't be scared, anesthesia is like a really good nap. I'd do it for fun if it was safe and cheap.

It really just boils down to a fear of death.

I have tried talking to a therapist about this many times and ultimately it comes down to. Fear of missing certain experiences, scientific discoveries, etc. But then logically I tell myself... I won't be alive to fear that?

But then that thought sends me down a spiral on its own.

Like its an illogical fear, the very nature of death you would not have any regrets... since you can't. But... yeah.

It is all kinda of weird.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#237

Post by BossingAround »

whatshisface wrote: post #186
velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

> If you’ve ever awoken from general anesthesia, you know what death will be like. Death will be like waking up somewhere else with no sense of time having passed?

That's a misquote/misunderstanding of OP's point. The point was rather that the quality of being in anesthesia is likely very similar, if not the same, as the quality of being dead, i.e. no qualia at all (at least, if anesthesia was done properly).

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#238

Post by nerdjon »

BossingAround wrote: post #235
nerdjon wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say, as someone who very much believes as you do (no after life or anything related). The idea of this kinda scares me? I have never been under anesthesia, but I have kinda accepted that at some point in the not too distant future I will likely need to be for my knees and/or carpal tunnel. But something about being under it basically being like experiencing death just, it reinforces those fears even more of…

The fear of not waking up is not necessary. When you do not wake up, no fear can exist. It's usually the pain before dying people are scared of. That is an understandable fear, one that is commonly exploited by humans (e.g. torture).

Hah I just replied the same thing to another comment.

Logically I know that I would not be alive to fear it. But it's the illogical side still afraid of that... fear.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#239

Post by leereeves »

BobbyJo wrote: post #228
fluoridation wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the real question is, if the mind can exist independently of the body (and the brain), why does consciousness stop temporarily during certain phases of sleep? If the mind can go on even when the body dies, then it stands to reason that the brain being unconscious should pose even less of an obstacle.

> brain being unconscious That's circular logic no? In any case, a good counterpoint would be blackout drunk people. They are somewhat conscious, and can interact with their environment, but if you ask them after the fact when sober what happened, it would appear to them as if they were entirely unconscious. Anesthesia proves the brain is (at least mostly) unable to access experiences that take place when it isn't re…

> while our mind is present in the brain, we rely on it for recall

People who believe in reincarnation must have accepted this long ago, because they can't remember their past lives, or anything that happens in between.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#240

Post by [deleted] »

leereeves wrote: post #239
BobbyJo wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> brain being unconscious That's circular logic no? In any case, a good counterpoint would be blackout drunk people. They are somewhat conscious, and can interact with their environment, but if you ask them after the fact when sober what happened, it would appear to them as if they were entirely unconscious. Anesthesia proves the brain is (at least mostly) unable to access experiences that take place when it isn't re…

> while our mind is present in the brain, we rely on it for recall People who believe in reincarnation must have accepted this long ago, because they can't remember their past lives, or anything that happens in between.

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