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I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

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Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#231

Post by chefandy »

shreyshnaccount wrote: post #79
chefandy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I think the most productive thing the industry could do is get rid of developers who drastically overvalue their own work, methods, and ideas, haughtily dismiss the value of others’ contributions out of hand, and blame everyone else for a project’s shortcomings. You can usually ID them by their persistently rolled eyes, big fish in small pond mentality, and 1.9 septillion reputation on Stack Overflow.

you're both wrong. the most productive thing would be to grow up and help bring the better out in each other. create an environment thats about the skill. set aside ego and focus on building something wonderful. but doesn't seem that's gonna happen soon. (i dont really like bigtech, but the "blameless" culture seems like it could be very productive and save many a dramatic exits)

Not really sure what you're advocating for that's materially different than what I posted.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#232

Post by pclmulqdq »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #229
pclmulqdq wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the history of construction, better tools have not improved quality of output. People in the ancient era made amazingly fine furniture. The finest furniture made today still uses techniques similar to the ones used 300 years ago. Similarly, I doubt that better web development tools improve the quality of apps. It likely just makes them cheaper.

There are good tools and bad tools, we just tend to forget the ones we depend on the most. Let's try to write a web page with concurrent access without a database, or let's try to write a web server using C or Assembly and no libraries, because we don't want to rely on tools. Our industry is built on layers and layers, every layer is a tool to the next layer, how can we claim better tools don't make better applicatio…

Let's take the web server example: The most commonly used web server is nginx. Written in C (possibly C++ now?), with no libraries except Linux headers.

The layers are there to make developers more productive, not to make code quality better. In fact, layering is probably the most expensive thing that computers do today.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#233

Post by pketh »

pketh wrote: post #211
aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The banner at the top is constantly appearing/disappearing. It’s super annoying, and this is just one of the issues… Sorry, but in its current state your website is a good example of why webapps are inferior to native ones.

i would like to have the header/footer fixed in position but safari ios doesn't accurately send position information during swipe scrolling that would let me keep it fixed without jittering. (Because the app is designed to be pinch scrolled and maintain the header, I can't just use regular css position:fixed)

Released an update that only fades out the header/footer when pinch zooming, so it stays visible when swipe scrolling.

Also while fading during a slow pinch, it will no longer fade back in until after your fingers have left the screen.

It’s not perfect still, but much improved imo - thanks for your feedback

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#234

Post by wizofaus »

berkes wrote: post #225
wizofaus wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those papers all agree? And what's the right course of action if, for instance, everyone in your team hates using TDD and threatens to resign or switch teams if you attempt to enforce it? Though surely it's more likely that something like "TDD" isn't an either-or proposition, and even if the evidence clearly shows the effectiveness in particular scenarios or when done in a particular manner, its not a given that m…

Off course they don't agree. Though I have asked numerous times to come up with scientific research or arguments that prove the science in e.g. Accelerate! wrong, no-one, not even the strongest opponent of CI, TDD or such, ever has produced that. Instead, people come with handwavy nonharguments that "in this particular scenario it is different". To which I neither agree nor disagree. I only have proof that it does ap…

Sure, but unless someone's taken the time to do the studies, anecdotes are the best data we have. And I'm not entirely dismissive of personal feelings either, when they're formed as the result of years of experience exploring different techniques. Especially because I tend to feel there's more to software development than just "engineering", and there's a creative side to it that's never going to be completely reducible to whether technique A is measurably better than technique B. Certainly in a tech lead type role, being aware of how those in your team enjoy working individually while still sticking to basic principles and guidelines that allow the team as a whole to produce quality code in a timely fashion is one of hardest balancing acts to get right.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#235

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

dist1ll wrote: post #193
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because they have nothing better to point to. Well - they do. For example, HN is running on a simple bare metal machine, with another one waiting for emergency.

Do you have a source for that?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31821904

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#236

Post by chefandy »

ratww wrote: post #151
shreyshnaccount wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're both wrong. the most productive thing would be to grow up and help bring the better out in each other. create an environment thats about the skill. set aside ego and focus on building something wonderful. but doesn't seem that's gonna happen soon. (i dont really like bigtech, but the "blameless" culture seems like it could be very productive and save many a dramatic exits)

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the previous answers, although I think they're a bit snarky. There is indeed a larger number of developers that is necessary on lots of projects from influential companies lately, and this heavily affects the architecture and the outcome of those projects. The goal isn't to "build X" anymore, it's to "build X but with N engineers", with N being multiple times the minimum amount needed…

Maybe there are a ton of unqualified developers in SV playing Wordle instead of coding? I have no idea. The vast majority of software projects aren't managed by FAANG or Unicorn companies. The financial landscape in those companies is completely detached from reality and not a good basis for comparison.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#237

Post by xwdv »

kitsune_ wrote: post #152
rat9988 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still tools though.

Maybe the word 'tool' is just not adequate and there is no 1 to 1 equivalence here. If you come from woodworking, the saw or drill doesn't end up being part of the table you build whereas the framework code is part of the actual product you build. Or in other words, if you remove the framework after you programmed your solution the solution stops working where as if you remove the drill and put it back into your bag…

Tool is an adequate word, they just need to apply it correctly. Vim is a tool. It’s used for writing code.

A framework is not a tool. It is previous work that you build upon so you are not starting from scratch. It is a canvas, already assembled and sized.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#238

Post by smaudet »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #201
omarhaneef wrote: post #28

The author complains that developers argue about their tools and methods, insist on their favorite techniques, but produce (more) worse apps. Particularly for the amount of time and effort expended on developing the apps. The thing is: the debates aren’t naive. They’re exactly trying to workout the details. When someone says, hey forget postgresql and just use SQLite, and someone else says good luck if you hit n rows…

Everyone is going to miss the point here and go down rabbit holes about various technical bits and that is exactly the point: developers spend lots of time debating everything The limited resources really doesn't matter. The tech choices really don't matter. Pick a prominent MVC based web framework, a RDBMS, some front-end libraries and go build the thing. Lean towards picking stuff the team has experience using. The…

Hmm. Antipatterns do matter though - red tape abounds and is rarely conducive to good apps. Don't, e.g., bother to write comments for all your functions, modularize everything, or insist that every line of code must be tested.

Not that those things can't be good in small amounts, 95% of modern web dev is busy nonsense like this, and it shows. Tech decisions are another source of waffling, to be sure. There has been more than one rewrite of a product to a worse product, to a product being again rewritten, or practically rewritten, because the rewrite was bad.

Yeah some of it is management sticking its nose where it doesn't belong, but yeah, I think the point is also that devs argue about mostly what doesn't matter, instead of focusing on what does matter.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#239

Post by divan »

kitsune_ wrote: post #150
divan wrote: post #107

Web dev community should just acknowledge the simple fact that typesetting engine from 80s (HTML) and legacy hacks built around it (css and js) is not a good foundation for making modern apps. It's like trying to build apps with a spreadsheet cells (it's actually possible, but we don't do it, thankfully) by throwing a lot of abstractions and frameworks on top of it that would hide the ugliness of the foundation layer…

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but there are many great web apps, or not? Google Maps, Docs, Sheets and Slides - they all kind of work without being super horrible? It's not like most desktop apps are these great beacons of perfection either, most desktop apps are just as bad as most web apps. Just think of all the ridiculous enterprise applications that people had work with in the past. And the same applies…

Sorry for unsolicited continuation of the thread, bu I was just typing a comment into StackOverflow box, and zoomed the page a bit (with pinch zoom). Page now shifts itself to the bottom and right on every keypress.

Can't imagine seeing weird stuff like that on any desktop app, and yet, for the web apps bugs like this are just normal. We blame developers ("..didn't use this media query api properly..") and ourselves ("oh, it's because the zoom.."), but that the crux of the problem – you have to spend time and efforts to stop these leaking bugs from foundation layer.

Re: I don't care how you web dev; I just need more better web apps

#240

Post by axilmar »

gen_greyface wrote: post #108
divan wrote: post #107

Web dev community should just acknowledge the simple fact that typesetting engine from 80s (HTML) and legacy hacks built around it (css and js) is not a good foundation for making modern apps. It's like trying to build apps with a spreadsheet cells (it's actually possible, but we don't do it, thankfully) by throwing a lot of abstractions and frameworks on top of it that would hide the ugliness of the foundation layer…

https://www.photopea.com/ this is a webapp

It is a nice app because it follows desktop app standards: a menu bar on top, floating windows, a document area, toolbars around it etc.

It may be a little slower than native desktop apps, but that is to be expected, since it relies upon an interpreted language.

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