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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#231

Post by raverbashing »

de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

The trimodal distribution is certainly present in the USA as well

Not every developer there wants/can/will move to SF for a FAANG job (or to NY, Seattle, etc)

You won't get paid the top salaries if you're with MS in Miami, or with a "legacy company" in a less popular city, etc

Remote might change that of course

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#232

Post by tgv »

kortilla wrote: post #184
splittingTimes wrote: post #158

Humanities supposedly most brilliant minds work on the next e-billing system, AI on how to sell more crap that nobody really needs, keep a glorified message board afloat or enable the cancer that is advertisment. They should work on how to address the climate catastrophe, the waste/recycling problem, food security, sustainable agriculture and land/water use, medical devices/health care or how to fix the broken partic…

> They should work on They work on what society rewards them to work on. Attach massive guaranteed funding to companies that solve this problems and it will attract smart people competing for it.

That's a spin, and a bad one. First, it isn't society that rewards them, it's private companies and investment bankers. Second, you limit reward to monetary compensation. Third, people are not forced to take the best paying jobs. Doing so is selfish, which is the GP's point.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#233

Post by justinlloyd »

maccard wrote: post #56
ceeplusplus wrote: post #3

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

in some states. On a salary of £120,000 in the UK, you'll take home 60% of your pay [0], meanwhile in California on $145,000 [1] you take home 63%. The real difference is that it's very hard to be paid 120,000 in the UK. [0] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php [1] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...

> The real difference is that it's very hard to be paid 120,000 in the UK.

Interesting. I recently turned down the opportunity to interview with a UK company because the compensation target was 120,000 pounds and I flat out told them, "that won't even get me out of bed in the morning." I have been talking with quite a few UK recruiters over the past few months and what I am noticing is that a lot of recruiters and headhunters in the UK just don't have access to the upper tier deal flow that pays the 200K salary. My current recruiter is under a strict "don't come to me unless they either have a super interesting problem in a revenue positive, stable company for 200K or a boring problem for 250K in a post-seed start-up." I have a standing offer with a company I don't want to work for for a little over 200K base compensation, so that's the target any recruiter has to hit. The work is out there, it just takes a while to find.

Thanks for the link to the salary calculator, useful to know what my take home will be when I am ready to make the move.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#234

Post by xenadu02 »

de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

You can rent a 3/2 house with garage for 4k in San Francisco. My mortgage in SF is not even 10k!

The only people paying 5-10k for an apartment are doing it in a trendy area, posh building, or both. Personally I'd consider that a waste of money but to each their own.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#235

Post by thaumasiotes »

Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

> The reverse is true for developers? The companies with global reach instead pay the most?

> And then it occurred to me that the efforts of good developers scale.

There's nothing special about developers here. Large employers always pay more than small ones, for every job. Shelf stockers at Walmart get paid more than shelf stockers at other nearby stores. There's no scaling there.

Broadly speaking, productivity is higher for workers in large employers.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#236

Post by seibelj »

tomtheelder wrote: post #148
seibelj wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anecdotes from supposedly-superior socialized medical systems in Europe always throw cold water on USA leftist dreams. The left here has been saying it’s a utopia for a fraction of the cost for decades. The reality is so much more complex.

I mean I could tell almost the exact same anecdote from when I had to have my appendix out in the US. The key difference is that I ended up with a fucking insane bill to pay at the end of all of it. Plus the NHS was better historically. The conservatives have been playing starve the beast with it, and Labor is about as impotent as the Dems are in the US. Either way they still spend less and have better outcomes, so t…

Is it at-all possible that either

1) it isn’t the conservatives but a larger systemic issue

Or

2) healthcare is, like all services, a market-based system where the highest-skilled gravitate towards the private sector, the highest-wealth gravitate to the private sector, and the poor / poorly skilled / the selfless use the socialized system that can never serve the needs of all the people at a below-market cost?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#237

Post by seibelj »

_vbnz wrote: post #141
seibelj wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anecdotes from supposedly-superior socialized medical systems in Europe always throw cold water on USA leftist dreams. The left here has been saying it’s a utopia for a fraction of the cost for decades. The reality is so much more complex.

I mean, I'm a leftist in the EU, it's just that the system isn't working due to cuts and mismanagement, and unfortunately the "left-wing" parties here are more concerned with identity politics and policies benefiting the lumpen rather than the proletariat (mass immigration, social housing for criminals, etc.). I support universal healthcare, but I think a lot of Americans don't appreciate the benefits they get from t…

Europe pays ~10% of GDP to healthcare and you say it isn’t enough money “due to cuts”.

USA pays ~20% of GDP and the left says it’s “too much” when compared to Europe.

How much would you expect society to pay? Clearly it’s less than 20%, as that’s society being robbed, and more than 10%, as that’s healthcare being cheated. What is the correct percent?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#238

Post by ido »

seabrookmx wrote: post #230
ido wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The climate in BC is already perfect IMO and has milder winters than central Europe.

*Southern BC and Vancouver Island It's a big province. Winter sure isn't warm north of Prince George.

Fair enough, but the mild areas are where most people actually live.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#239

Post by atq2119 »

lnsru wrote: post #145
fnbr wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, really? That’s incredible! €1-2k for a 2-3 bedroom apartment in Vienna? You would barely see that anywhere in Canada, let alone a major city.

The same is valid for Munich. 2-3 bedrooms plus dining room is <2k here. However it’s not the best apartment in the city, rather okayish. Also it’s hard to hit 5k after taxes salary limit here.

It is absolutely possible to get more than 5k after taxes as base salary in Munich as a true senior software engineer. Lots of what TFA calls "tier 3" companies are in Munich.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#240

Post by benreesman »

IMHO the software engineering community has Stockholm’s syndrome around compensation (cue the doofy but not inaccurate jock/nerd dichotomy stereotype of not even 10 or 20 years ago).

This shit is hard. Even relatively intermediate SWE jobs demand a level of fluid intelligence and capacity for detail within 1-2 sigma of the hardest jobs on Earth, and the more elite software jobs are among the most demanding jobs on Earth.

This trend is accelerating as software “eats the world” or whatever we’re calling it now.

Why shouldn’t we make a fuckload of money?

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