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Vim 9.0

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Re: Vim 9.0

#231

Post by kzrdude »

slgeorge wrote: post #203
kzrdude wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're used to open projects but Bram's seems to be that he wants to be in control, he's the main author. So Vim is then open source but not a completely open project.

That's pithy but a characterisation that misses many important aspects. Bram's been developing Vim for 30 years [0]. Just think about that for a second. An open source project that's been running for longer than the age of probably 50% of the readership on hackers news. It's ways of working and values have been developed over a long period of time. Vim favours being available on multiple platforms, alignment with Uni…

I think it's fair that a new person is needed at the helm to want to look forward to new features. A comparison with Vi only means the status quo is good enough. When we put it like this, Neovim is unavoidable. (The fork is unavoidable, but it doesn't mean the demise of the old project.)

I'm not even sure it's human nature to put it as winners and losers. Our current culture is obsessed with seeing it in this way, very much influenced by "the economy" of the wide-area societies we live in, but I'm not sure it's universal.

Re: Vim 9.0

#232

Post by usrbinbash »

viccuad wrote: post #215
anonydsfsfs wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just checked the repo[0], and it says Bram has authored 95% of all commits to Vim. To say "the community owns Vim" when they've done ~5% of the work reminds me of group projects in school where one person does all the work and everyone else claims credit. [0] https://github.com/vim/vim

One is not a better parent by controlling their kids for their foreseeable future. One needs to let them join the world and grow on their own, with their own friends.

vim is open source, so everyone who wants can fork the repo and change the code however he pleases.

Re: Vim 9.0

#233

Post by johncoltrane »

OJFord wrote: post #228
johncoltrane wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the two projects don't follow the same development model so comparing (artificially capped) GitHub-centric lists is not exactly conclusive. One has to dig a little bit deeper.

In what way is it 'GitHub-centric' or 'artificially capped' though? If I did it with `git shortlog -s` it's also going to omit the contributors from the .. I don't even know what centric way you say vim did it, and over-report commits for those who were allowed to have their names recorded properly but against commits actually authored by someone else. It's just totally non-standard against the grain git usage.

> In what way is it 'GitHub-centric' or 'artificially capped' though?

The parent set the context of this thread by providing links to GitHub pages, that's for the "GitHub-centric", and the GitHub UI caps many of its listings to 100 items (100 pages of search results, etc.) so you only get to see the 100 first contributors, that's for the "artificially capped".

> If I did it with `git shortlog -s`

You would use an inappropriate measurement method that doesn't take into account the nature and history of the subject of your study and thus get meaningless data.

> It's just totally non-standard against the grain git usage.

There is no such thing as "standard" git usage, especially when factoring GitHub into the discussion. There are "modern" expectations, though, that the Vim project doesn't meet because it is much older than those expectations. Maybe you don't like it but it matters when discussing metrics.

FWIW, the move to Git of "the kernel" also dropped more than a decade of pre-2005/pre-git history so `git shortlog -s` won't give you the full picture there either.

Re: Vim 9.0

#235

Post by archseer »

BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #183
undoware wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that sounds hard but I... don't often code in python? I can see bolting a fallback regex mode for the few languages that have features which ts cannot (yet) accommodate. And 'niche layered on niche' is -- well, it leaves me wondering how much you've actually used hx. The experience is nominal, the installation is sane, and it was way faster to get to 'genuinely pleasant' than nvim ever was. As a plus, nix home-manage…

I don't often code in python either, but it's a considerable red flag that one of the largest languages in the world has been completely broken for this long. It makes me not want to invest time building muscle memory for the editor. Sometimes I need to code in python, and when I do, I don't want a lot of inconsistencies and jank. That's what I mean by niche layered on niche- the editor itself is a niche project that…

> it kind of falls apart

I'd like to point out that the editor is barely a year old and I'm working on it entirely during my free time. It takes time to sort out all the issues and provide excellent support for all languages. I primarily write Rust and Go so those are guaranteed to work well.

It's hard to do tree-sitter query based indentation with space based languages, because the indent has semantic meaning and the AST node is invalid until indentation is typed out. We do have a potential solution (https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/issues/763#issuecommen...), it just needs someone to go and implement it.

I don't consider tree-sitter niche though. Outside of VSCode it's widely adopted, but yes it's probably too soon to only rely on tree-sitter with no fallback. Of course we do implement fallback behaviours too: we try to use tree-sitter first, then provide a simpler fallback for cases where there's no grammar available (or like in this case, it's not a great fit).

Edit: this has prompted me to switch python to the fallback algorithm for now https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/commit/9ae70cc410bd042...

Re: Vim 9.0

#236

Post by tasuki »

maxdamantus wrote: post #107
pbohun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't expandtab mess with creating/editing makefiles?

I really wish more systems would adopt the "copyindent" pattern, where indentation is simply copied from the existing line. I've primarily developed in vim for 15 years and have similarly minimal `vimrc`s (no plugins), but some of the first configurations are always: set autoindent set copyindent set preserveindent This should be compatible with basically any language (other than some esolangs like "whitespace") and…

I'm not ok with that. I use EditorConfig so as not to have to remember which project uses tabs and which uses spaces.

Re: Vim 9.0

#237

Post by oblio »

xigoi wrote: post #207
oblio wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like in math, and Lua doesn't do manual memory management so aligning stuff with memory addresses is not needed. They're both valid options and it's just about preference.

Indexing starts at 1 in math mostly because in history, people were afraid of 0, and it's hard to change conventions.

Debatable. It makes sense to say "the first element", regardless of mathematical connotations. We've had this kind of expression in almost every language across the world long before we invented multiplication.

Saying the "the zeroth element" is just... weird and slightly nonsensical.

Re: Vim 9.0

#238

Post by xigoi »

oblio wrote: post #237
xigoi wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indexing starts at 1 in math mostly because in history, people were afraid of 0, and it's hard to change conventions.

Debatable. It makes sense to say "the first element", regardless of mathematical connotations. We've had this kind of expression in almost every language across the world long before we invented multiplication. Saying the "the zeroth element" is just... weird and slightly nonsensical.

Yes, because language developed at a time where people didn't know about zero.

Re: Vim 9.0

#239

Post by azemetre »

f1refly wrote: post #211
azemetre wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you want to do? My best advice would be to search up some dot files from people you may follow on GitHub. There are all kinds of configs, but typically just fork someone’s you like then make minor tweaks. Here’s mine, I also linked the three people I copied from in my read me: https://github.com/azemetre/dotfiles

Is that a thing anyone does? Follow people on github? I'm vaguely aware that they tried making github social media but I never heard of anyone actually using it like that.

I don’t really follow people for the social media. If there are devs I like I get to easily see what projects they follow, fork, or contribute to. It a good way to see what’s out there IMO, project wise. I found many awesome libs and CLTs this way.

Re: Vim 9.0

#240

Post by oblio »

xigoi wrote: post #238
oblio wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debatable. It makes sense to say "the first element", regardless of mathematical connotations. We've had this kind of expression in almost every language across the world long before we invented multiplication. Saying the "the zeroth element" is just... weird and slightly nonsensical.

Yes, because language developed at a time where people didn't know about zero.

Zero still would most likely wooldn't make sense. Zero is nothing, it can't be anything. Even ordinally.

1 is something and it fits very well for the first position... outside of programming :-)

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