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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there were not many orcs and goblins for a long time in many areas, as we learned from the books. They only came back and multiplied with the slow return-growth of Sauron. Sauron had already returned c1000 TA to Dol Guldur. We're specifically told that evil things, such as Orcs, begin multiplying in number by c1300 TA, which triggers the migration of the Hobbits to the Shire (already we have an example of why t…

Wars and plagues every couple hundred years or so. So what you are saying is that wars and plagues are significantly less frequent then they were in pre-industrial Earth.

"Wars and plagues" can vary in scale from having next to no impact to being world-changing events, so in isolation it tells you nothing.

One of the more common last names in Norway is still "Ødegaard", literally "Deserted farm", reflecting families who were residing on farms which still had not gotten a proper name by the time the tradition of using your fathers first-name as a last time started dying out. This even then - by the 1800's - involved re-clearing farms that had still not been re-settled after the Black Death.

Of the ca. 36500 farms which existed in Norway around year 1300, only about 16000 were still populated by 1520, and the population is believed by some sources to still have been only half of what it was in 1300. It was not until the 17th century that Norway "recovered" - that is, until it was back to pre-plague, levels, having lost several centuries of growth, but with population centres having changed, leaving many ancient farms still empty reminders.

In Norway, a disproportionate portion of the political and religious elite died. E.g. while almost the bishops in Sweden survived, all but the bishop of Oslo died in Norway. The Northern provinces of Norway were left to their own devices for a long time, without a functioning government, because so few government officials were left that the king chose to focus restoration in the South and largely just abandoned them.

That was one event.

I also don't recall running into Nazgul and Orcs while growing up near Oslo, and imagine facing that might have been a rather severe deterrent to growth.

EDIT: I'll add that Norway is a good reminder that a combination of destructive events, harsh conditions and the extremity of the hockey stick nature of population growth can explain a lot. Norway today has a population density of ~14 per km^2. In 1950 that would've been ~8. In the mid 18th century about ~3. In the aftermath of the plague, likely <1, and still <1 by the 16th century. You can still travel on foot for days through central Norway without meeting people if you stay clear of the places most popular with people out hiking for fun. A couple of centuries back, and not only would you be able to do that, but you'd have been likely to now and again come across farms that had been empty for centuries, despite centuries of a growth and recovery.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#232
post #141
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, this is also a myth. You are quoting Letter #131. But you are likely quoting secondary or tertiary sources and forgot the rest. Here's what you quote: > Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient)…

Tolkien's work is a solution in search of a problem though. It's unsurprising to conclude that English has so few stories if he discards all its Germanic and Skandinavian heritage!

He did not. He reached for those Scandinavian and Germanic stories, to fashion his own, and England's. But to say that the stories of the English would have been the same as the stories of other Germanic and Scandinavian people's assumes much less diversity among all those peoples than had actually existed.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#233
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't read the notes, but shouldn't Mordor, being an autocracy without a recognizeable middle class and a very lean political system focused on war, have very cheap labor?

Very cheap, but probably also quite unsophisticated. They can make basic stuff, but they also don't need to produce finer things. The Orcs make up for it with their numbers, and Sauron cares about power, not about wealth.

Right but I mean, that's not exactly the right conditions for industrialization. Who designs and builds the machines? Who does the research? Sauron solo?

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#234

Seems clear the author: 1) knows next to nothing about Middle-Earth or Tolkien's larger work and honestly admits it, though continues to make sweeping generalizations about a subject they admittedly know little about; 2) knows nothing about classics, ancient history nor history of technology except perhaps bullet points gleaned from a pop documentary, iow, author displays extremely pedestrian and shallow knowledge or…

Agree completely on the writing style. Even were the subject interesting - world-building in fiction generally is to me - the intensely hostile tone puts me off almost immediately. To be honest, I couldn't read past the first quarter without just rolling my eyes and closing the tab. It's an affectation that I feel has become more popular of late; this eye-rolling, obnoxious, "ha ha don't you hate reading this? Isn't…

Interesting, I found the tone to be tongue in cheek and sarcastic. I liked it.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aragorn is able to defend most of the north with a few hundred irregulars, while the east participated in only one war 60 years ago that was done in a few weeks time. Which might be a good reason why the don't have a population boom: long periods of stability with low threat from war, low infant mortality and high food security seem to cause low birth rates (at least in our world). If your children are unlikely to…

Middle Earth has no contraception (Tolkien is catholic) and the only way to stop multiplying is to stop doing... math. LOTR is famous for the women missing from social life, so there is no reason that such measures have been taken. So, you are expected to have high birthrate until you occupy all the good lands and then some. After that you either rediscover Malthus or you start innovating to get more out of what you…

> LOTR is famous for the women missing from social life, so there is no reason that such measures have been taken.

Maybe the women are missing from not just from social life, but from the world. Not just the entwives[0] and the rarely seen dwarven women, but even human women are surprisingly rare. How many of all those many men making an appearance were married? Only hobbits seem to have actual families, but still not very big ones.

Maybe Middle Earth just isn't very fertile and can't sustain large populations. Maybe there's a very good reason why population levels are closer to Siberia.

[0] https://xkcd.com/2609/

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#237
post #60

> As mentioned in the quote introing this section, the Dwarves are explicitly described as mining coal in The Hobbit. This is one of the key places where The Hobbit is unavoidably discontinuous with LOTR. Bilbo also has matches and a clock. Tolkien considered a larger revision of The Hobbit to bring it in line with LOTR but ended up only significantly reworking "Puzzles In The Dark", the chapter where Bilbo meets Gol…

But but but LOTR includes some nice Andean taters, fried up just right.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#238

The article presents an engineering answer to s sociological question. The reason technology did not advance in Middle Earth is because innovation was not rewarded. Innovation and experimentation were punished. Mine a little too deeply? You awaken a balrog that kills you an everyone you have ever known. Want to expand into that verdant area across the river? You didn't expect giant spiders, did you? Build a disruptiv…

How is that different from real world history?

Grow some crops? An invading army will come and steal and trample them.

Mine for coal? A coal heap will bury your town or you'll die in a collapse.

Start a trading enterprise? Your ship will get raided by pirates or you die of tropical diseases.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#239
Substitution effect. When you already have magic, the incentive to develop technological means to do the same things is drastically reduced. This magic vs. technology theme is explored in many works, though to be fair all I know of were written after LotR.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, you missed the author's footnote to your excerpt. > Yes, strictly speaking dinosaurs aren’t needed for coal as coal mostly is made of plant biomass, you fun ruining hack of a pedant. https://featherlessbipeds.substack.com/p/why-didnt-gandalf-o... Commenters beware, the article is filled with such gotchas for the careless reader.

Haha. Granted I didn't check his footnotes, but that's pretty lazy writing, and feels more like he corrected it as an afterthought rather than editing his core text.

I sort of agree but one of my general regrets with web publishing vs. pages on paper (or even a formatted PDF) is that footnotes which bulletproof, add nuance, provide parenthetical detail, etc. don't work nearly as well because you can't just glance at them.
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