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How to set junior employees up for success in remote

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Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#231

Post by itsmemattchung »

slackfan wrote: post #7

For junior engineers it's really easy to fall into the trap of trying to solve everything themselves instead of asking for help when they are remote. I say this as somebody who has spent the last five years working remote team-based gigs.

> For junior engineers it's really easy to fall into the trap of trying to solve everything themselves instead of asking for help when they are remote

Senior folks do this. All the time.

Despite having 10+ years of experience and leading engineers at AWS, my default is to "spin my wheels". Now that I understand myself a little better, anytime I find myself laser focused on a problem, but making 0% progress, then I either:

1) distance myself from the problem or 2) ask for help 3) both

Junior or not. Asking for help can be difficult

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#232

Post by GordonS »

jimbob45 wrote: post #41
ZetaZero wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, an expensive keyboard/mouse/monitor isn't necessary for a junior to succeed. Plenty of coders learned on much worse.

If it's really that much of a problem, most companies will let you bring your own. Everyone at my last place did that with no issue.

Unless it's Evil Corp, where the USB ports are epoxy'd, and/or software protects against anything "non-standard" being plugged in :-/

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#233

Post by asah »

lettergram wrote: post #101
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

This is not a surprise to me. I think it also applies to some people who are senior and new on a project or team. Or people with a more synchronous working style. I think remote has been toxic to productivity in all sorts of companies and for all sorts of people. I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected…

I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway. What I mean by that — as a manager and one of the senior engineers, I had insight across our organization to projects and employee performance. Those who thrived being remote were those who already were the top performers. Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously. Most software engin…

sadly, this is my experience as well...

...but it's also true that all-superstar teams rarely win vs teams composed on superstars and supporting staff [1], and thus you can't afford to hose the supporting staff.

[1] sorry I don't have a better reference - https://www.google.com/search?q=all-superstar+teams+vs+super...

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#234

Post by jmyeet »

lettergram wrote: post #101
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

This is not a surprise to me. I think it also applies to some people who are senior and new on a project or team. Or people with a more synchronous working style. I think remote has been toxic to productivity in all sorts of companies and for all sorts of people. I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected…

I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway. What I mean by that — as a manager and one of the senior engineers, I had insight across our organization to projects and employee performance. Those who thrived being remote were those who already were the top performers. Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously. Most software engin…

It's so easy to conflate "top performers" with "people like me".

Take someone who points out flaws in a system, things that need to be addressed before they become a problem. The exact same words from two different people can be interpreted differently. For example:

- "X is a top performer who anticipates problems with their deep understanding of the system"; and

- "Y is negative and simply points out problems rather than offering solutions."

The difference? Whether or not that person is liked, which really comes down to them being like me. That's literally all it is.

Take your example of "fun" days. Personally I hate that kind of faux team bonding. I mean if it works for you and your team then great. But don't be fooled. You haven't found the formula for "top performers". You've just found people like you.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#235

Post by ratww »

Saint_Genet wrote: post #113
treis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO it's turnover that's the problem. Companies get engineers for an average of like 24 months and it might be even less for junior employees. Taking the time to train someone up doesn't make as much sense when you're not going to get return on your investment.

Yes, but maybe it's time for companies to ask themselves why they have such high turnover

I think it really depends.

I've seen junior devs getting promotions in several cases because they were that good. On the other hand, I've seen several less performant junior devs that are treated as completely replaceable. This was in companies where mentoring actually happened.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#236

Post by KaiserPro »

Agamus wrote: post #172
holoduke wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utterly nonsense. How about children learning from home via a laptop? Doesn't work. Same for people who need to be trained in a new work environment. You want real interaction. You need to experience more than only sound and video in order to learn efficient. It's extremely wrong to think that good performers can always do these things from home. Not right.

I just want to note that my experience is the exact opposite of this in every regard.

I suspect it depends on age and class.

My 5 year old struggled and needed a whole bunch of support.

my 8 year old was able to work on her own, but still didn't get anywhere near as good learning outcome as being in class.

Now, the reason why my kids didn't fail utterly, was because my wife wasn't working and could, just about support their learning. Until it sapped her will to live.

This is roughly analogous to junior employees. They need special attention, and providing that over remote is a challenge to scale. Not impossible, but a challenge.

You also need to factor in that Junior employees are more likely to have shit accommodation.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#237

Post by bumby »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #106

"I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway." Ah, there it is, the bountiful blind arrogance I have come to expect from threads like this on HN. It's like you didn't even read my post, just looked for the hook to drop in and proclaim your superiority.

From the HN Guidelines:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

I don't think a personal attack is most generous interpretation of their post.

I would add some nuance. I've increasingly come to the conclusion that initiative is one of the best qualities in an employee. It's natural to see how having initiative will lend itself well to both in-person and remote work, but I suspect the effect is even more prominent in asynchronous work where there's less oversight and less opportunities for someone to spell things out.

Relating to the article, junior employees are often at a disadvantage regarding taking initiative because they simply lack the tacit organizational knowledge to run with a task. They may not know who to contact or the full context of problem areas. This makes them more reliant on mentorship, which can be more difficult in remote work.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#238

Post by Agamus »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #213
Agamus wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to note that my experience is the exact opposite of this in every regard.

Your experience as a child learning from a laptop?

On that topic, no, I am referring to observing my own children learning from a laptop. I could not have been more skeptical of this approach at first. I was wrong - the approach has worked well so far.

EDIT: I definitely should have mentioned that my children are learning from a laptop WITH very close guidance from my wife who is raising them full-time and with intense dedication!

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#239

Post by Balgair »

lozenge wrote: post #48
ZetaZero wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, an expensive keyboard/mouse/monitor isn't necessary for a junior to succeed. Plenty of coders learned on much worse.

Feeling valued is necessary for a junior. They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets.

Wait, you guys get three monitors? I only get the one that I had to find in the closet-of-beige-machines.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#240

Post by civilized »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #219
civilized wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree with you, but we should remember that the shift to remote happened abruptly due to an unprecedented, immensely disruptive pandemic. This was not a controlled experiment where we can automatically attribute any issues that emerged after the shift to inherent flaws in remote work. That said, I think your experiences with the limitations of remote are valid and shouldn't be dismissed, although I personall…

I'm committed to remote, too, because the alternative (local pseudo-feudal crappy employers who generally underpay) is worse. But now on my own terms and with an employer I choose rather than the half-assed way that it was attempted at Google. And without my kids at home. Probably, actually, I'll end up renting a desk out of home somewhere nearby.

Sounds like we both survived the pandemic with young kids at home. I for one won't be getting the t-shirt.
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