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The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

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Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#231

Post by capableweb »

jasonlotito wrote: post #28
capableweb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That made me lose a whole lot of respect for Ive. You mean you lost respect for Alan Dye? Seems to have been the one who fired Imran Chaudhri. > Shortly after the email, Dye fired Chaudhri.

No, they mean Ive. > The email alarmed Ive and Dye. They feared that the message Chaudhri sent could be interpreted to mean that Apple’s best days had passed. It’s clear from the article that both Ive and Dye were directly involved in the firing.

> It’s clear from the article that both Ive and Dye were directly involved in the firing.

It's really not. The part you quoted doesn't say that Ive was "directly involved" in the firing, it says he felt something about the message Chaudhri sent. The article states Dye was directly involved in the firing, and mentions nothing about if Ive was involved or not, so we should presume he wasn't. Otherwise the article would say so.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#232

Post by protastus »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #202
protastus wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone in a leadership position has a responsibility to measure their words carefully, especially in a farewell email. "Sadly, rivers dry out, and when they do, you look for a new one." broadcasts extreme negativity to the people who remain. It almost reads like a cautionary warning followed by advice. One can write a heartfelt goodbye without ambiguity. Assuming the ambiguity was unintentional, the author was carele…

Sounds like you demand that people walk on eggshells around some thin skinned psychopath. It is human to make some mistakes or miscommunicate. The normal thing would be to have a talk and clear things up. Management must react when an employee keeps screwing up despite feedback. Here was a one strike rule. Even the California prison system is more easy going than that ;-)

Indeed, life is not easy going when someone is senior enough to work with a CxO at a giant company, and writes emails with thoughts that influence entire organizations.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#233

Post by Aeolun »

Nathanba wrote: post #224
scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it’s not his own poetry - it’s some Persian classic he’s quoting so you could probably look into it and find a whole well-spring of deep knowledge explaining exactly what he meant by it. In the letter he talks about his own soul, and the experience of deep work being like that of a river. So it’s pretty clear he’s talking about what’s on his interior spiritually. From a designer “I am barren and in a creative r…

If the team was truly so tight knit then you wouldn't need to write an email to convey that you are leaving. I'm personally always flabbergasted by people who write company wide farewell messages. It's a net negative for the company to hear about people leaving. It doesn't matter what the reason for leaving is except if it's that the person won the lottery. Any other reason: Why not stay here? What's so unsustainable…

I’m the opposite. My company has this thing where people that leave send an email they’re leaving literally the afternoon they disappear, and sometimes nothing at all.

It feels like they’re sneaking out under the cover of night, and it makes everyone I need to work with feel very fungible. Getting attached to any given person is a dangerous excercise, since one day they might suddenly be gone, and you wouldn’t know it.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#234

Post by formerly_proven »

goosedragons wrote: post #161
jiggawatts wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citing IBM as good at design makes this read like a parody. Everything IBM does is so hilariously ugly in the least imaginative, boring, industrial way that they’ve gone through “boxy” into some other universe where it’s almost — but not quite — good style. For crying out loud, everything they make is black . There are famous Apple ads deriding the bland corporate look of IBM!

IBM has made lots of not black things. Were any of their typewriters black? The IBM PC sure wasn't and many models after that weren't. I think the ThinkPad was their first black computer at the very least. IMO ThinkPads look great and they've done some really cool things like the butterfly keyboard.

> Were any of their typewriters black?

Yeah, both in their electric and Selectric lineup.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#235

Post by Aeolun »

doctor_eval wrote: post #115
scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #9

That bit about the firing of the designer who used the river metaphor in that email is such a good lesson for anyone: Never ever ever ever announce moves like this if there is still money on the table that can still be taken away from you. No matter how awesome your company is, how great the team, product or how wonderful the atmosphere is. This guy thought he wrote a heartfelt goodbye to his beloved team and was ins…

I read the book, and it says a few things that contradict other stories I’ve read about Apple, by people who were there. After a while I started taking things with a grain of salt. Considering how awful the story is, I think it’s likely that there was more to the guy who got fired than the book let on. They were worried about an exodus so they treated a guy like shit? And why did he announce his departure before his…

> And why did he announce his departure before his benefits were locked in?

This happens when people trust their team and managers. Which is why I consider it the worst sort of betrayal to fire people over it.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#236

Post by Aeolun »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #201
scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #9

That bit about the firing of the designer who used the river metaphor in that email is such a good lesson for anyone: Never ever ever ever announce moves like this if there is still money on the table that can still be taken away from you. No matter how awesome your company is, how great the team, product or how wonderful the atmosphere is. This guy thought he wrote a heartfelt goodbye to his beloved team and was ins…

This and what Elon Musk did keep getting me struck by how little protection workers in the US have. Fired on a whim. But so do remember when working at American companies all the horror stories we heard about how our colleagues working in America got treated. It became these “did you hear the latest crazy thing they did in the US office?” I am not saying this to dump on America but hopefully to get people to demand b…

I really enjoy that it’s basically impossible for my company to fire me on a whim (at least it’ll be a multi month process that you can see coming months away).

I can be openly critical to my boss, or leadership, or mess up in general and recover my good graces without constantly worrying that my job and life depend on it.

That said, we have to work with one another, so it’s in all our interests to keep a good relationship.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#237

Post by ksec »

oreilles wrote: post #61
runjake wrote: post #4

I respect Ive's design skills but I think that Ive leaving is one of the best things to happen to Apple in decades. They're slowly going from Ive's minimalist artistic designs back to useful computing devices and user interfaces.

I can't tell for iOS, but for macOS the UI has only gone downhill since Ive's departure. Broken navigation gestures and shortcuts, UI inconsistencies, indistinguishable toolbar icons, wasted space everywhere... Since Big Sur I feel like I'm using a bad Linux clone of macOS.

I felt because current Apple is all about optimising. From Hardware Cost, Market Fit, and even Software. Making Software that looks and feels the same across iPad, iPhone and macOS may save some engineering cost or design cost. But to me, that is still a very toaster fridge design.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#238

Post by simonh »

the_af wrote: post #208
psaux wrote: post #152

There is a lot to digest in this piece. Work environments are very dynamic and context and time-in-point is very important. I did not see this behavior, but I was not part of that group at Apple. I worked with Jony after we were acquired. The original Siri linen background was his idea, the bubbles had to be perfect, the padding, the text size, the lists goes on. I inferred this as design obsession and did not find i…

> “not all ideas make the cut, even the best ones” I'm not sure I understand. If the best ideas don't make the cut, which ones do? Or was Jony acknowledging a flaw in Apple's process?

They are discussing design ideas. There might be many, many reasons why a product with an absolutely killer design could get cancelled anyway.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#239

Post by sangnoir »

foobiekr wrote: post #127
sangnoir wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can understand why the uber-expensive Apple Watches would appeal to a certain audience. I never could understand why Apple (or anyone else) this would be a possibility. Luxury watches are almost synonymous with heirloom; there is no way anyone will be wearing a functional Gold Apple watch in 2085 with the anecdote "This was my dad's watch" - it would be hopelessly outdated, and likely non-functional by then. This…

That heirloom stuff is purely marketing the fantasy of rich parents handing down a bauble (instead of, say, a business or real assets) aimed entirely at middle class and upper middle class people. It’s not real.

I may not be understanding your point: are you suggesting that 60-year-old still-functional swiss-made "baubles" don't get inherited? Old money is almost entirely defined by items inherited from forebears.

Re: The dissolution of Apple’s legacy design team

#240

Post by ksec »

>Apple’s operations team determined that making the iPad would require building several new features from scratch. The first-time costs of new machinery, a new logic board, and other components would amount to billions of dollars, an investment that would take years to recoup. Those so-called nonrecurring engineering costs led Apple’s business division to suspend the iPad.

I think this sums up pretty much everything that is wrong with Modern Apple. And as someone who used to scrutinise everything Apple, from their quarterly report to Supply Chains. This is sadly the case. You only need to look at Apple Retail to see how it went from a Marketing, Services and User experiences goal to some financial checkbox.

I would imagine Steve would have authorise the few billions just to build a better iPad.

It is also clear Johny have a some sort of burnout at Apple, Software UX should never have been under his decision making. After the departure of Forstall, Jony went all in and teared everything apart in iOS7 within a year. Spend most of this time on Apple Retail redesign and Apple Park. And clearly trying to make the ultimate product he long dreamed off, the Macbook and MacBook Pro Touch Bar before the tech was ready. And somehow had an Apple Design Book by the end of 2016, which I thought was basically a tribute dedicated to Johny.

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