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We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

beaconcrm.org

231–240 of 351 posts

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#231
post #214

They say it's 100% of the full-time salary, but the one open position they have is a full-stack JS engineer for the equivalent of about $66k USD. Is the market really that bad in the UK? That's not even a good new grad offer in the US.

No that's definitely on the very low side for a London engineer unless you're a new grad or with very outdated skills.

You can't directly compare salaries with the US though : the tax and benefits structure is vastly different.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#232
post #214

They say it's 100% of the full-time salary, but the one open position they have is a full-stack JS engineer for the equivalent of about $66k USD. Is the market really that bad in the UK? That's not even a good new grad offer in the US.

Yes, yes it is that bad. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/london-software-engineer-... . 60k Pounds is about 75k USD. Seems like Beacon might be on the low side.

I wouldn't trust that : for one thing, they list the "Entry Level Software Engineer" average as £57,581 when "Software Engineer" is £53,392 overall.

Better in my experience : https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#233

Strange how many orgs discover that working less hours or remote increases productivity for most people. It’s almost as if unstressed “workers” produce better quality work. There was an experiment whereby cows were shown to give more milk if not stressed. Certainly the same applies to humans. When will companies learn that milking their “workforce” of their energy doesnt yield the expected results but quite the oppos…

If this approach works startups will leverage it to gain an upper hand. We've seen this with remote work. Startups identified this gap and used it to outcompete other larger companies.

Personally I believe in remote and that it will get even better as tech to facilitate it improves.

I don't believe in working 4 days for engineering specifically. The field changes rapidly, there is a large learning curve and it takes a lot of hours to really master it. There is also some fixed overhead in communicating with other departments which stays the same even if you work less hours. So you remove more than 20% of your productive hours with this approach. You also reduce the time you spend learning. This further hampers your productivity. I think it will be a niche thing only done by some startups that care about this, have no other way to attract talent and aren't very ambitious.

That being said, for some people it will work well. It's pretty common for some roles in the netherlands for instance.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#234

I work a four-day week (80% time, not imagining 4-10s) as a software engineer at a non-profit academic organization. For a paycut basically, I make 80% of what I think of as my "actual" salary. I have managed to do this at a succession of several jobs now. When I briefly tried to go back to 5 days, it was really hard. It seems insane to me now that anyone works 5 days a week. (And I do know plenty of people work even…

To clarify to a since flagged (by someone else) comment:

When i say "I'm at least 90% as productive" -- I mean I am more productive per hour worked. Not that I end up working 90% hours but only getting paid for 80%.

I really do work 80% hours, only four days a week, Monday to Thursday. I am not expected to and don't work on Fridays, Saturdays, or Sundays.

I just get done I think 90% or more of what I would get done in five days, in four days. As seems to be commonly reported by people in this situation.

Some people have also said "Yeah, but in my remote software dev job, I work even less than 80% of my expected hours, I just don't tell them, and I get paid a full salary."

I'm not gonna say much about the ethics of that, I guess I think it depends on the specific situation. But regardless, I'd myself just be stressed out if I had to be less than honest about my work. And my 80% schedule is clear -- I really don't work on Friday, nobody expects to be able to reach me on Friday (any better than they could on a Sunday or at 4am, unless I'm on-call), I don't check my email or look at my work calendar, I am really not working. And that's the whole benefit to me -- it's a different thing than using lots of hours for personal social media or something (which, sure, I do to some extent too whether 4 or 5 days a week.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#235
France tried to limit work week to 35 hours thinking that all hours are equal and it would lead to reduced productivity and a need to hire more workers. It failed to have the intended effect except for factory workers. We are starting to have plenty of signals saying that 4 day work week is good for morale, happiness and not at all detrimental to productivity.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick phone calls are often more efficient than emails. For status updates, downloads of information, sure email works. But if you want a back and forth exchange of ideas, talking is often much faster.

Talking is indeed faster but if you're not recording the result in some document to share with others not on the call there's risk that valuable information will be lost.

We create a teams chat that is separate from the meeting and document what we agree on in that chat, that way it is documented for everyone who forgets the details by tomorrow morning.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#237
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what percentage of meetings occur because someone in leadership is disorganized and / or unable to properly communicate with staff while they're performing their jobs on a daily basis. Gonna say that, excluding standup, this has to be at least 50%.

I've heard this class of meetings described as "organizing your thoughts with witnesses" and that's a brilliant explanation in my experience.

That’s a brilliant description. And might not always be a bad thing.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#238
post #4

If you were explaining the world to an alien, it would be hard to justify the lack of diversity in working arrangements. I applaud any such non standard option in the labor market - may your office be full of good fits!

I recently watched the movie 9 To 5 where Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, and Dolly Parton rebel against their boss at work, and ultimately fix the workplace by allowing people to job-share, where sets of two people each work half a day, and by opening a day care center on their floor. This movie came out in 1980.

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#239
post #214

They say it's 100% of the full-time salary, but the one open position they have is a full-stack JS engineer for the equivalent of about $66k USD. Is the market really that bad in the UK? That's not even a good new grad offer in the US.

You might ask yourself - if Europeans are willing to do the work that Americans are doing, but for half (sometimes even a third, or quarter!) the price - Are European workers underpriced, or American workers overpriced?

Re: We're moving to a four-day work week at Beacon

#240
post #130

I've been working 4 day workweeks for well over a decade now, took the pay cut myself. As for the goal to maintain 100% productivity whilst cutting back on hours, I'm confident that they will succeed. In fact, they'll succeed in this without requiring some kind of brilliant plan, as this recalibration happens automatically. When you start working one day less, nobody will reduce your workload by 20%. You'll have the…

My company does max 30 minute meetings. It's great and somehow everything still gets discussed. Occasionally we run a bit long but everyone knows you can only rely on people to be there for the first 30 minutes. I'm in a Staff role with my fingers in multiple projects across several teams, and I still only have 2-3 hours of meetings a day.

>only have 2-3 hours of meetings a day.

Only?? It's surprising you tolerate even that much.

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