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Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

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Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#231
post #2

It doesn't help that corporations buy all these houses up at full price and well above listing just so they can use it as rental income.

If they are renting the house out, that means it isn’t being removed from the housing supply. Why would this distort the market?

Even assuming the markets were separate, if corporations were buying up tons of housing stock and flooding the rental market with it... shouldn't rents be going down?

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no rule that you should be able to afford a house on a middle class income. In fact in many countries, particularly in Western Europe, it’s unimaginable that you would be able to afford a detached, single family home on a middle class income. Lots of people in that situation will live in apartments, row houses, or condos for the rest of their lives.

Western Europe is both considerably more crowded and poorer than the US.

Total population / total land area is an irrelevant statistic for country comparison. By population-weighted density the United States isn't significantly less dense than Western Europe.

Unfortunately, directly comparable, prepared numbers are difficult to come by. The 3 most memorable sources I've found are:

* https://theconversation.com/think-your-country-is-crowded-th... - Discusses (introduces?) the concept of "lived density" and provides graphs for Europe. I'm not sure how well the author was familiar with related work regarding population-weight density, which seems to be the more correct term.

* https://ssrn.com/abstract=3119965 - A low-level analytical discussion regarding population-weighted density as a metric.

* https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.01167 - A COVID-19 pandemic-related paper which incidentally includes comparable population-weighted density metrics for both Western Europe and the United States.

I haven't looked into things since 2018 (excepting taking note of the 2020 COVID-19 paper), but IIRC census.gov has some population-weighted density numbers somewhere based on MSA and census block (tract?) proximity. It's not easily comparable to available European statistics, but it might be a good place to start if you want to play around with U.S. density numbers.

Maybe there have been better resources published since the above.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is not entirely correct. If I am not mistaken 30% of buyers are cash buyers, hence they do not care about the mortgage rate. Second, the big issues is with houses supply. The high rate basically lock most current sellers which have very low mortgage rate (compared to 5%), hence reducing the supply more.

Why would anyone pay cash for a house when even a horrendous mortgage rate is still only 6%? That cash is earning 10% easily with zero effort. Put 15 minutes of effort in and open a Betterment account and you’re likely getting closer to 20%. Cash buyers make no sense to me.

20% return from Betterment? That’s hyperbole right? I have a betterment account and it’s nowhere close to that.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#234
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no rule that you should be able to afford a house on a middle class income. In fact in many countries, particularly in Western Europe, it’s unimaginable that you would be able to afford a detached, single family home on a middle class income. Lots of people in that situation will live in apartments, row houses, or condos for the rest of their lives.

You can't compare Western Europe to the US. Maybe to specific regions or super-urban areas, e.g., the LA to SD corridor or the Bay Area. In which case the two are comparable: there are few if any middle-class families in the bay area that own their homes except by inheritance or some other luck (gift, lottery). Even condos and other high-density housing are all but completely out of reach for all but the top 10% of i…

> there are few if any middle-class families in the bay area that own their homes except by inheritance or some other luck (gift, lottery)

Plenty of middle class people bought nice homes they could afford in the bay area in the 90s. Although I suppose you could consider this "luck".

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if there are buyers, competition, and houses are continuing to move quickly, then it’s a bold statement to say they are overvalued and that we should predict a significant decline. No, for the simple reason that (most) people buy homes with mortgages. Take a look at the 30 year mortgage interest rate over the past few months. The total cost to own a newly purchased home is what matters, not the actual sale price. T…

So this is not entirely correct. If I am not mistaken 30% of buyers are cash buyers, hence they do not care about the mortgage rate. Second, the big issues is with houses supply. The high rate basically lock most current sellers which have very low mortgage rate (compared to 5%), hence reducing the supply more.

A 70% drop in demand would crater the marginal price of homes by over 70%.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is not entirely correct. If I am not mistaken 30% of buyers are cash buyers, hence they do not care about the mortgage rate. Second, the big issues is with houses supply. The high rate basically lock most current sellers which have very low mortgage rate (compared to 5%), hence reducing the supply more.

Why would anyone pay cash for a house when even a horrendous mortgage rate is still only 6%? That cash is earning 10% easily with zero effort. Put 15 minutes of effort in and open a Betterment account and you’re likely getting closer to 20%. Cash buyers make no sense to me.

Have you checked your portfolio lately?

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#238
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone pay cash for a house when even a horrendous mortgage rate is still only 6%? That cash is earning 10% easily with zero effort. Put 15 minutes of effort in and open a Betterment account and you’re likely getting closer to 20%. Cash buyers make no sense to me.

20% return from Betterment? That’s hyperbole right? I have a betterment account and it’s nowhere close to that.

What are you getting? Are you looking at time weighted or money weighted? I just checked and I’m getting an average of 21.6% across 7 different portfolios on betterment (annualized, not cumulative).

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#239

Would you rather hold cash or a home during a period of inflation. Most people wisely chose to put it in a house. With a 7% compound interest rate, your money doubles every 10 years. With a 7% inflation rate, I believe it halves in the same time frame. Perhaps it's not that houses are worth more, it's that money is worth less. A 350k house in 2010 should be 700k now if the real inflation was 7%. And at least where I…

> However, employers haven't raised wages to keep up with this new reality.

No, they've instead raised wages to attract employees, which they have to do because of the labor "shortage".

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#240
post #69

There’s something happening with Euro/JPY vs USD that is forcing a significant inflow into US assets. It’s going to continue because: (1) EU kicked the can for far too long and they cannot meaningfully raise rates without facing the realities of the debt crisis of 2010-12, and now made impossible due to Ukraine, and (2) Japan is committed to driving down the yen even further. USD is king and real-estate will reflect…

yes jpy has been devaluing for some time now.. it was coming

My income is in yen and this makes me sad lol
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