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Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

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Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#231

Post by jefurii »

maratc wrote: post #138
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

Israel has successfully reused its wastewater for agriculture. Turns out crops like the recycled wastewater just as much as drinking water. More than 90% of wastewater is reused in Israel. The second-place holder reuses less than 25%. United States’ rate is less than 10%. [0] [0] https://www.fluencecorp.com/israel-leads-world-in-water-recy...

One problem, at least for Southern California, is that the wastewater is located far away from agricultural areas. Doing this would require another water project on the scale of the project that brings water down here in the first place. Wouldn't be a bad idea tho.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#232

Post by ece »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #104
ece wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't there MPG-like standards for farming, and if we had such standards, how much water would be saved? Maybe there are irrigation standards and I just don't know.

If you charged for water and also let farmers sell excess there would be incentive to improve efficiency. But politically this is untenable.

I think a consumer standard (like farmed with x quantity of water) might work just as well, and it might be a way to get around the normal politics.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#233

Post by gremlinsinc »

Spooky23 wrote: post #30
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

Well, what are we going to do? California and Arizona wiped most of the US produce business off the map. Between the destruction of Ukraine, the western us droughts and the impending exhaustion of much of the Ogallala Aquifer, looks like many chickens are coming home to roost in the coming years.

Funny you speak of chickens, there's also a chicken pandemic that's spreading everywhere. So, looks like those chickens will be going to the big henhouse in the sky to roost.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#234

Post by gremlinsinc »

subsubzero wrote: post #48

Like others mentioned the current drought/dry period is how the west has always been. What is an abnormality is the last 150 years and how wet it was. Multiple scientists are saying the same thing but nobody in politics/media are listening. Given no desalinization plants are being built or efforts made to trap more water runoff expect things to get alot worse. Also expect current CA politicans to blame everything on…

I always wondered if there'd be a way to basically create a deeply sloped man-made river system that essentially brings salt water deep inland - say as far as Colorado, and perhaps it can be desalinated naturally setting up some filtration systems along the way to catch some of the salt.

Imagine if we had a river as big and wide as the colorado river coming from the pacific ocean and back into the colorado river. It might even change weather systems to bring more rain in the area because there's more water vapor.

I'm not a scientist and don't know the specifics on how/if that'd work but it'd be a pretty interesting experiment.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#235

Post by danans »

Fricken wrote: post #229
danans wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water is very heavy. The energy expenditure (AKA fossil fuel burned) to lift water over the mountains between the PNW and Southern CA would be massive and defeat any climate change progress. A fraction of that energy/investment put toward using water more efficiently in agriculture (in both the physical and economic sense) would make a bigger difference.

I just finished a trip to the Buttermilks, a climbing area on the eastern slopes of the Sierras. I was surprised to discover that the land is owned by the city of Los Angeles, so they can protect their freshwater source that is pumped and piped over the mountains to LA.

The mountains they are piped over are not the High Sierra, but the narrow coastal ranges near Santa Clarita. That itself requires a massive amount of energy.

Here is the full map of the system:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Aqueduct#/media/...

Pumping over the Cascades would require much more energy since there are no natural valleys connecting the water rich parts of the PNW with CA. It's a very thick wall of mountains that you would have to pump water up and down repeatedly.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#236

Post by ncmncm »

jefurii wrote: post #230
ncmncm wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California grows 80% of the US vegetable crop (i.e. excluding grain and pulses).

Vegetables use far less water than dairy and almonds do, fwiw.

Yes, almonds and dairy in California are contraindicated.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#238

Post by dubyah »

sologoub wrote: post #154
maratc wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has successfully reused its wastewater for agriculture. Turns out crops like the recycled wastewater just as much as drinking water. More than 90% of wastewater is reused in Israel. The second-place holder reuses less than 25%. United States’ rate is less than 10%. [0] [0] https://www.fluencecorp.com/israel-leads-world-in-water-recy...

Israel also uses a lot of desalination: “ Israel now gets 55 percent of its domestic water from desalination, and that has helped to turn one of the world’s driest countries into the unlikeliest of water giants.” [1] While CA is busy stonewalling desalination project that could cover 1/3 of Orange County needs and would reuse old power station infra. And not much else is planned. Recycled water isn’t readily availabl…

A little silly to assert that with respect to Orange County, when it's the home of the largest indirect potable reuse system in the world.

https://www.ocwd.com/gwrs/

Only one out of 19 of the municipal water districts have committed to buying Poseidon water due to the cost and risk.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#239

Post by jjav »

wbl wrote: post #150
ehnto wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really the whole story though, because water supplies are not a centrally stored resource shared amongst all consumers. It's a fairly distributed system with lots of different reserves feeding different consumers. For example, small towns may pull their drinking water from a dam or other reserve that is of limited supply, where the agriculture in the area is not affecting the same water, being pulled from…

Not true in California due to the state water project. Water is captured in NorCal and shipped to SoCal for agriculture. Central Valley farmers directly reduce the water for SV suburbs. The only river they haven't tapped is the Klamath.

> Not true in California due to the state water project.

Very much true in California, your info is incorrect.

There is no central water source. There are tons of independent unrelated water systems.

Source: My small town in California has its own and every nearby small town have their own.

Every one struggles with drought conditions but each one is different. Some feed off mountain runoff and rivers, some are from groundwater only, some are threathened by seawater incursion some are not, and so on. In some of these drought years some of them have nearly run out of water completely, others have more spare capacity.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#240

Post by jjav »

onphonenow wrote: post #43
DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

Yep. You can look at this from an economics standpoint as well. We have run out of FREE water. If all water use in CA cost anywhere close to residential water rates ($8 / 100 cubic feet) there would be no shortage. Even a small tax of $0.01 per gallon would be a start in this space. We have exploded population and if you look at water projects (that actually deal with supply) have not done the same over 50 years or w…

> If all water use in CA cost anywhere close to residential water rates ($8 / 100 cubic feet) there would be no shortage.

From my water bill which I paid tonight (in California), 1000 gallons is around $20. So about $14 / 100 ft^3.

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