‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#231

Post by imtringued » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

cool_dude85 wrote: post #183

core-utility wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are gyms really that costly to run that they can't sustain on a moderate paying userbase? I'm talking basic cardio and weight gyms, not the mega gyms with a pool and massage. The property might be prime but a lot of that comes to the choice of LA Fitness, 24, etc. choosing to build their own custom building in prime areas. Smaller gyms like Planet Fitness tend to use otherwise empty storefronts.

I think the idea is that if they had to build for their actual peak capacity, i.e. everyone showing up at once, they would not be economical. Of course, this is a silly hypothetical - the legislation is about making it more convenient to cancel your membership, not a guaranteed set of barbells whenever you decide to come in.

This is one of those problems with liquidity. You are buying a subscription plan that tells you can come at any time. The business can't plan ahead because you haven't committed to a fixed schedule. If your subscription plan was locked to specific time slots the gym could do much better capacity planning. However, such a subscription model is less liquid which means customers want to be compensated for giving up their freedom to pick an arbitrary time slot with a discount.

It's kind of weird how liquidity is such a general concept that goes way beyond money.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#232

Post by dixie_land » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

xydinesh wrote: post #224

QuikAccount wrote: post #4

Fully in favor of this. I recently had to cancel a subscription that had no "cancel subscription" button and instead forced you to contact customer service so they could try to sell you on discounts and etc. No, just let me cancel and get on with my day. Unfortunately, it seems health clubs(and I assume gyms?) are exempt from this when they are like 80% of the problem.

Absolutely! Once I tried to cancel SiriusXM for an old car it was a nightmare.I had to call and wait for hours to get someone. Never signup for SiriusXM since then.

whenever I call they keep offering me to renew with “new customer” offer, which is/was good price when I used to commute and do enjoy many channels and play by play.

long story short I have many Echo Dots (free for “new” customers) lying around in the house now.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#233

Post by throw10920 » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #200

everdrive wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty easy lesson here: don't sign up for services. Or more realistically, sign up for as few services as possible, and treat every service with suspicion until proven otherwise. If you can't obtain a company's goods without signing up for a service, then seek an alternative. Services generally have two business models: - Spread a large cost over monthly payments so that customers will spend more than they…

SaaS is an absolute cancer. I know a lot of those fat six figure salaries are contingent on people paying $9.99/mo for a grocery shopping list app, but its getting out of hand. Sorry HN.

> SaaS is an absolute cancer.

I pay $40/year for Remember the Milk, a SaaS, and it's one of the most valuable ways that I spend my money - I easily get more than $40 a month in increased productivity (assuming a $20/hour personal time rate). Speak for yourself.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#234

Post by BizarroLand » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

tempnow987 wrote: post #225

Interesting - a decade later - we are just starting to see some legislation that replicates what Apple has been doing on their app store (that they are being sued over with claims that their policies are anti-consumer). Long long overdue. People chose apple because regulation and developer practices on the broader web are so horrible (despite claims that there is no fraud and the focus of the DOJ on apple, billions a…

I would prefer if all digital subscriptions were affirm to continue and not click to cancel.

It would work simply. If you purchase a month/year, whatever & you're set up with autopay, once the subscription you have purchased ends, the next time you use the service you would have to approve continuing the subscription at the same terms with a single click.

No click? No pay.

I would also like it to require a second link on the same interstitial to review the terms of the subscription, and that it would be required that if there were any term changes from the previous purchase (new legalese, price variances, or service options added or removed) that they would also have to detail those in brief.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#235

Post by gammarator » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

dwighttk wrote: post #169

tomrod wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certainly, imo. Were I a VC, part of my model to identify industries ripe for tech disruption would be to find those that get legislative sweetheart deals that don't benefit the taxpayer.

Ooo I just had an idea: Uber but for lobbying

“American People Hire High-Powered Lobbyist To Push Interests In Congress”

https://www.theonion.com/american-people-hire-high-powered-l...

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#236

Post by gnopgnip » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

jxf wrote: post #21

logicalmonster wrote: post #8

This is one of those things that sounds really good on the surface, and hopefully it is so, but I'm always wary of unintended consequences when it comes to legislation. Are there any loopholes or bad behavior this might enable? Just something to keep in mind and consider, but on the surface I'd have to say that this does sound pretty good.

> Are there any loopholes or bad behavior this might enable? Yes; if you're a company that doesn't like Click to Cancel, and your company's Pennsylvania business is small relative to your total business, the logical choice is simply to stop serving Pennsylvania citizens.

CA has a similar law allowing online cancellation, and is a larger market that is hard to ignore

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#237

Post by tempnow987 » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

jscipione wrote: post #230

tempnow987 wrote: post #225

Interesting - a decade later - we are just starting to see some legislation that replicates what Apple has been doing on their app store (that they are being sued over with claims that their policies are anti-consumer). Long long overdue. People chose apple because regulation and developer practices on the broader web are so horrible (despite claims that there is no fraud and the focus of the DOJ on apple, billions a…

If you mess up your subscription order the company can’t help you because the subscription is through Apple, all they can do is direct you to Apple. Apple also can’t help you because they don’t have access to the company’s services to make the correction. So as a consumer you have your hands tied by Apple if you use their subscription service.

Can you provide a more specific example? The order has a detailed confirmation. If you don't like it it is easy to cancel. If you really don't like it you can get a refund.

I've done a lot of subscriptions and purchases and have never had a problem with them, including getting things sorted in a few odd cases. Apple has support phone numbers with real people in a surprising number of countries.

You can setup ask to buy if you have a kid and are worried about them purchasing accidently.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#238

Post by tempnow987 » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

BizarroLand wrote: post #234

tempnow987 wrote: post #225

Interesting - a decade later - we are just starting to see some legislation that replicates what Apple has been doing on their app store (that they are being sued over with claims that their policies are anti-consumer). Long long overdue. People chose apple because regulation and developer practices on the broader web are so horrible (despite claims that there is no fraud and the focus of the DOJ on apple, billions a…

I would prefer if all digital subscriptions were affirm to continue and not click to cancel. It would work simply. If you purchase a month/year, whatever & you're set up with autopay, once the subscription you have purchased ends, the next time you use the service you would have to approve continuing the subscription at the same terms with a single click. No click? No pay. I would also like it to require a second lin…

A great idea. Probably the only folks able to do something like this would be apple (at least pre- DOJ litigation) because they didn't have to worry about what publishers of apps thought. Once they have to offer other app stores publishers won't accept that and will just move off the apple store.

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#239

Post by bikenaga » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

The issue with cancelling magazine subscriptions has been discussed here before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22426102

The FTC issued a statement about ramping up enforcement against consumer entrapment last year: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2021/10/...

From the FTC statement, they require companies to:

  * Disclose clearly and conspicuously all material terms of the product or service, including how much it costs, deadlines by which the consumer must act to stop further charges, the amount and frequency of such charges, how to cancel, and information about the product or service itself that is needed to stop consumers from being deceived about the characteristics of the product or service. The statement provides detail on what clear and conspicuous means, particularly noting that the information must be provided upfront when the consumer first sees the offer and generally as prominent as the deal offer itself.

  * Obtain the consumer’s express informed consent before charging them for a product or services. This includes obtaining the consumer’s acceptance of the negative option feature separately from other portions of the entire transaction, not including information that interferes with, detracts from, contradicts, or otherwise undermines the consumer’s ability to provide their express informed consent.

  * Provide easy and simple cancellation to the consumer. Marketers should provide cancellation mechanisms that are at least as easy to use as the method the consumer used to buy the product or service in the first place.

This was issued Oct. 28, 2021. Has anyone who has tried to (e.g.) cancel a magazine subscription noticed any difference?

Re: ‘Click to Cancel’ legislation introduced in Pennsylvania

#240

Post by everdrive » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

throw10920 wrote: post #233

Workaccount2 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SaaS is an absolute cancer. I know a lot of those fat six figure salaries are contingent on people paying $9.99/mo for a grocery shopping list app, but its getting out of hand. Sorry HN.

> SaaS is an absolute cancer. I pay $40/year for Remember the Milk, a SaaS, and it's one of the most valuable ways that I spend my money - I easily get more than $40 a month in increased productivity (assuming a $20/hour personal time rate). Speak for yourself.

I think it's a signal to noise thing. There are definitely good services out there. There are just as many terrible, predatory ones. And sometimes, more insidiously, a good service slowly transitions into a predatory service.

I'm definitely not really suggesting that people should never use any services. Just that in general, these should be viewed with suspicion, and you should have an exit plan: you could find out nefarious things about your service, or the service could be modified leaving you high and dry.