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Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

theintercept.com

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Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#231

Post by edmundsauto »

kevingadd wrote: post #99
edmundsauto wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible analogy and adds nothing to the conversation. We aren't going to make children work in mines, because (as I'm sure you know), adult workers and children are not the same thing. There is a huge chasm between "adult workers making more than a lot of their other opportunities is slightly more cannot unionize as easily using Amazon services" and "put children back in coal mines".

> We aren't going to make children work in mines https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/nov/02/child-labor-laws... Are you sure about that? Absolutely certain?

How does an article about lifting allowed working hours for teenagers in a fast food joint equate to children working in coal mines?

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#232

Post by deltaonefour »

josephg wrote: post #230
matthias509 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High salaries for tech workers are not a new phenomenon. So if programming were truly a skill a large number of people could just “pick up”, it would have happened already.

Yep. Programming is really hard. The idea that anyone can "learn to code" is a work of fiction. Nobody says that anyone can learn to do surgery, become a fighter pilot or become a barrister. I couldn't do those jobs. And lots of people couldn't do my job. Telling people that effort is the only thing stopping them getting a 6 figure software engineering salary does real harm. Its notable that most people who say this…

Disagree. Not only can anyone program. But anyone can do surgery, become a fighter pilot and become a barrister.

It's the same thing as how anyone can learn mathematics, algebra, biology and any of the typical subjects you learn at school. You struggle with deep learning only because it's a paradigm shift. It's too different from traditional programming so the initial learning curve makes it seem like you're incapable. Given enough time anyone can surpass the hump and become good at deep learning.

That is not to say that these skills are trivial. There must be a lot of training time to achieve these skills. But make no mistake... anyone can do it.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#234

Post by Renaud »

thumbsup-_- wrote: post #221

All they need is to agree to use "onion", "praise" and so. So much bad press for something that can be worked around so easily

It's trivial to make a long list of banned variations.

The point is not about the technological cat-and-mouse game, it's about Amazon being so afraid of their employees that they have to resort to measures akin to those used in China to prevent people from voicing their discontent while encouraging sanctioned behaviour (awarding stars like in kindergarten, really?).

It's pitiful. If anything, it's quite revealing of the lack of moral and ethical compass from those making these petty decisions, and those who knowingly implement them.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#236

Post by lostlogin »

deltaonefour wrote: post #232
josephg wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Programming is really hard. The idea that anyone can "learn to code" is a work of fiction. Nobody says that anyone can learn to do surgery, become a fighter pilot or become a barrister. I couldn't do those jobs. And lots of people couldn't do my job. Telling people that effort is the only thing stopping them getting a 6 figure software engineering salary does real harm. Its notable that most people who say this…

Disagree. Not only can anyone program. But anyone can do surgery, become a fighter pilot and become a barrister. It's the same thing as how anyone can learn mathematics, algebra, biology and any of the typical subjects you learn at school. You struggle with deep learning only because it's a paradigm shift. It's too different from traditional programming so the initial learning curve makes it seem like you're incapabl…

> But make no mistake... anyone can do it.

We have all seen the professionals in action…

There may be more people who can do it than one would instinctively think, but it doesn’t take long on a helpdesk or in any public facing role to conclude that many humans are maxed out with tasks that really aren’t that hard.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#237

Post by jokethrowaway »

grapeskin wrote: post #174
Firmwarrior wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

Massive salaries for programmers won’t last forever. Most people here on HN are self-taught; it’s a skill a large number of motivated people can pick up. Eventually, large corporations will feel comfortable lowering wages once they have a secure grip on the market, and the tools programmers today made will be used against the next generation. It’s no different from millennials resenting boomers for burning economic b…

Unpopular opinion but you need a certain IQ in order to be able to program effectively. A large portion of the population is not capable of reasoning at the level required to develop.

I've organised bootcamps and learning spaces for wannabe developers and there are tons of people which can't get their head around programming. I'm not talking about being able to do algorithms challenge. I'm talking about simple function calling, stacks, for loops, etc

That said, I've interviewed several senior programmers with a career who can't program and managed to coast in companies which are not capable or willing to test performances.

So the number of "programmers" may increase, given the salaries we can command, but the amount of developers in FANGs or companies that are capable to deliver something effectively won't increase dramatically. FANGs are leaving a lot of good developers on the table with their ridiculous leetcode policies, but the population of effective developers is not as large as you think.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#238

Post by jokethrowaway »

deltaonefour wrote: post #232
josephg wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Programming is really hard. The idea that anyone can "learn to code" is a work of fiction. Nobody says that anyone can learn to do surgery, become a fighter pilot or become a barrister. I couldn't do those jobs. And lots of people couldn't do my job. Telling people that effort is the only thing stopping them getting a 6 figure software engineering salary does real harm. Its notable that most people who say this…

Disagree. Not only can anyone program. But anyone can do surgery, become a fighter pilot and become a barrister. It's the same thing as how anyone can learn mathematics, algebra, biology and any of the typical subjects you learn at school. You struggle with deep learning only because it's a paradigm shift. It's too different from traditional programming so the initial learning curve makes it seem like you're incapabl…

Your comment is typical of people with an average or high IQ.

There are people whose IQ is so low they can't even be legally enlisted in the army (the ASVAB test the Army does correlates with IQ).

Some people won't have the same learning ability you have.

I also thought that everyone could learn to program and organised bootcamps and education for developers (for free) - it turned out only a fraction of the people I've met would actually manage to learn some basic programming and a fraction of those people would move on to become a programmer.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#239

Post by mypalmike »

lwansbrough wrote: post #41

Pretty shameful for the programmers who implemented this.

Read the article. There was apparently a meeting where there was a discussion about whether free text should be allowed in a kudos-granting app. It's possible, even likely, that nobody has implemented anything.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#240

Post by lostlogin »

harry8 wrote: post #218
uncomputation wrote: post #49

> The major goal of the program, Amazon’s head of worldwide consumer business, Dave Clark, said, was to reduce employee attrition by fostering happiness among workers — and also productivity. Shout-Outs would be part of a gamified rewards system in which employees are awarded virtual stars and badges for activities that “add direct business value,” documents state. At the meeting, Clark remarked that “some people are…

Look out for stern opposition to Amazon's behavior in the Washington Post "Democracy Dies in Darkness"

On the off chance someone doesn’t know it, the Washington Post is owned by Bezos.
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