What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#231

Post by Animats » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 5:59 PM UTC

teknopaul wrote: post #210

cafed00d wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Apple can double speak all they want about digital privacy, but their actions tell the truth. As a paying Apple customer, you’re not deemed worthy enough to even understand how your own machines work, less even to “tamper” with their working, and who knows what data is actually being shared? > - Personally, I say no thank you. I’ve been on Debian or a variant for almost 10 years now, and haven’t looked back. It’s…

Re: "I find it so odd, Linux users overlooking the fact that people who don't tinker with computers all their life do not have the time to get Linux up & running." Statement is a bit out of date, apart from a good PC, most Linux users don't even know they are using it. I find it crazy people have apps running on their Macs and windows desktops that they can't even find out what it is doing, let alone how it works. Th…

I find it crazy people have apps running on their Macs and windows desktops that they can't even find out what it is doing, let alone how it works.

Have you looked at a Linux syslog lately? This is 20.04 LTS on desktop. It does a lot on its own. Probably too much.

    Mar 31 00:33:18 Nagle-LTS whoopsie[1278]: [00:33:17] Cannot reach: https://daisy.ubuntu.com

Since the system was idle at the time, why did it need to contact that site? I think that's crash logging.

    Mar 31 02:17:42 Nagle-LTS snapd[503370]: storehelpers.go:721: cannot refresh: snap has no updates available: "bare", "blender", "brackets", "chromium", "core", "core18", "core20", "demo-curl", "gnome-3-26-1604", "gnome-3-28-1804", "gnome-3-34-1804", "gnome-3-38-2004", "gnome-system-monitor", "gtk-common-themes", "gtk2-common-themes", "inkscape", "remarkable", "snap-store"
    Mar 31 02:17:42 Nagle-LTS snapd[503370]: autorefresh.go:536: auto-refresh: all snaps are up-to-date

I'm not subscribed to any optional Ubuntu services. Yet:

    Mar 31 02:30:09 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Starting Ubuntu Advantage Timer for running repeated jobs...
    Mar 31 02:30:11 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: ua-timer.service: Succeeded.
    Mar 31 02:30:11 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Finished Ubuntu Advantage Timer for running repeated jobs.
    Mar 31 03:05:03 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Starting Firmware update daemon...

Something is trying to do a firmware update every few hours:

    Mar 31 03:05:04 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Started Firmware update daemon.
    Mar 31 03:05:05 Nagle-LTS fwupd[1434387]: 10:05:05:0005 FuPluginPciMei       ME family not supported for 0:9.0.1.1333
    Mar 31 03:05:05 Nagle-LTS fwupd[1434387]: 10:05:05:0007 FuEngine             failed to record HSI attributes: failed to get historical attr: json-glib version too old
    Mar 31 03:05:05 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: fwupd-refresh.service: Succeeded.
    Mar 31 03:05:05 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Finished Refresh fwupd metadata and update motd.

Apparently it didn't work because, despite this being a current system, something is out of date.

The Ubuntu "snap" system is busy, although it didn't update anything today. Two independent systems seem to be updating "snaps", which are part of Ubuntu's container system for remotely updated applications.

    Mar 31 06:36:49 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Starting Daily apt upgrade and clean activities...
    Mar 31 06:37:11 Nagle-LTS dbus-daemon[936]: [system] Activating via systemd: service name='org.freedesktop.PackageKit' unit='packagekit.service' requested by ':1.11660' (uid=0 pid=1437238 comm="/usr/bin/gdbus call --system --dest org.freedeskto" label="unconfined")
    Mar 31 06:37:11 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Starting PackageKit Daemon...
    Mar 31 06:37:11 Nagle-LTS PackageKit: daemon start
    Mar 31 06:37:11 Nagle-LTS dbus-daemon[936]: [system] Successfully activated service 'org.freedesktop.PackageKit'
    ....
    Mar 31 06:38:52 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: apt-daily-upgrade.service: Succeeded.
    Mar 31 06:38:52 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: Finished Daily apt upgrade and clean activities.
    Mar 31 06:43:56 Nagle-LTS PackageKit: daemon quit
    Mar 31 06:43:56 Nagle-LTS systemd[1]: packagekit.service: Succeeded.

There's a lot happening behind the scenes. Hopefully none of it is hostile or contains backdoors. One wonders.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#232

Post by rglullis » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #224

rglullis wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not enough people are going to make the choice you're posing to have any significant effect. A billion flies can not be wrong... I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. It's you who stands to gain or lose - along with all those that make a similar choice. > That doesn't seem like "freedom". You are also free to stuff yourself with sugar, drugs,…

> A billion flies can not be wrong... This willfully pretends not to understand the argument (I hope). My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me is a tad unfair. > I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. OK. Personally, I'm doing quite f…

> My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me.

It's not all to you. But you are contributing to it, and you shouldn't be excusing yourself on the basis of "look at everyone else doing it".

> I'm pretty sure that I've done way more to make open systems possible on the desktop than you.

This is not a competition to see who is more virtuous or less of a sinner. It is just me arguing that using Apple products is a moral failing.

> you should immediately stop all activity which isn't helping the cause of open-systems-on-desktop to avoid accusations of hypocrisy.

I am not perfect and I am not free of sin. But at least I am willing to call a failing as such. The first step to redemption is to accept your own faults.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#233

Post by Animats » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

30367286 wrote: post #199

seanw444 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try again. Linux Mint is fantastically simple to use, and legitimately "just works" for average-Joe uses cases. Linux, and its various distros, are an ever-evolving tech. Linux 10 years ago was so much less capable than Linux in 2022. Just because it didn't work then, definitely doesn't mean it won't work now.

On what laptops does sleep/hibernate work correctly when you close the lid, with Mint? Seriously, swear to fucking god, every time someone says “oh Linux just works”, the next comment is “oh? I tried that distro on the recommended hardware and had trouble with…” Next response is ALWAYS: “Oh yeah that’s broken but I don’t use that feature.” Usually about hibernate. As in, apparently everyone using a laptop plugged int…

On what laptops does sleep/hibernate work correctly when you close the lid, with Mint?

If anyone knows how to get XUbuntu 18.04 LTS to not shut down with the lid closed and power on, please let me know. I have a subnotebook that sits in a cabinet to run something, and since a recent "upgrade", it won't stay alive. Looking with Google produces at least five articles on this, all contradictory and none of which work. There's a GUI for setting this, it's set appropriately, and that doesn't work. There's a relevant configuration file where the "close lid" option can be set, and that doesn't affect this problem.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#234

Post by philjohn » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #218

cafed00d wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Apple can double speak all they want about digital privacy, but their actions tell the truth. As a paying Apple customer, you’re not deemed worthy enough to even understand how your own machines work, less even to “tamper” with their working, and who knows what data is actually being shared? > - Personally, I say no thank you. I’ve been on Debian or a variant for almost 10 years now, and haven’t looked back. It’s…

I've been using "linux on the desktop" exclusively for the last two decades and it's always curious to me when people complain about having to be a techno wizard to operate it because for at least the last 10 years I've pretty much had to configure nothing and everything from fancy displays to networked printers has worked without a hitch. I can honestly say that I'm not even sure where I would look to configure or t…

> One thing I did do while I was building that first linux pc, and for every computer I've bought or built since then, was a tiny bit of research on driver compatibility. Just something as simple as typing ' linux compatability' into google

And that's the reason you don't have problems - you're going for hardware/laptops that are well supported in Linux.

Do you expect mom and pop to do the same? Versus buying something off-the-shelf with Windows, or MacOS and it just working, without needing to undertake that step?

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#235

Post by philjohn » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:27 PM UTC

jmull wrote: post #174

koprulusector wrote: post #93

>Over the last year or so Mac users have run into problems that appear related to a background service named triald. Some report it stealing huge amounts of CPU, others associate it with various glitches, and a few have noticed gigabytes of disk space apparently being taken up by its folder at ~/Library/Trial, and in their Time Machine backups. This article explains as much as I know about this mysterious new service…

The existence of a Mac OS service you don't immediately understand really has nothing to do with Apple's stance on digital privacy. There's no logical connection here.

I'd argue that's not a helpful take.

This appears to be downloading and executing new code, and potentially returning results back to the mothership.

That there is no explicit opt-in, or even much information about WHAT this is doing, is sadly what I've come to expect from Apple.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#236

Post by c22 » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

philjohn wrote: post #234

c22 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using "linux on the desktop" exclusively for the last two decades and it's always curious to me when people complain about having to be a techno wizard to operate it because for at least the last 10 years I've pretty much had to configure nothing and everything from fancy displays to networked printers has worked without a hitch. I can honestly say that I'm not even sure where I would look to configure or t…

> One thing I did do while I was building that first linux pc, and for every computer I've bought or built since then, was a tiny bit of research on driver compatibility. Just something as simple as typing ' linux compatability' into google And that's the reason you don't have problems - you're going for hardware/laptops that are well supported in Linux. Do you expect mom and pop to do the same? Versus buying somethi…

I dunno, my dad spent 6 months researching his new truck.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#237

Post by saagarjha » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

conradev wrote: post #215

gotaquestion wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s your machine, but the inner workings are this ineffable mystery. At some point, every machine's software becomes an ineffable mystery. Do you know what is going on in all your 3rd-party Linux drivers, say, from NVIDIA?

As someone who used to work at Apple and have this knowledge at my fingertips… It really is nice to have, when you want to look it up. Userspace daemons and their behavior should not be a mystery. At an extreme minimum, most daemons on macOS have at least a man page describing their high level function.

Well, I just filed FB9971057: triald should have a man page explaining what it does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Unsure it would help against a person who is dead set at reading logs to figure out what a daemon does, but it might provide some basic insight to the casual reader.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#238

Post by gotaquestion » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

TremendousJudge wrote: post #165

gotaquestion wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s your machine, but the inner workings are this ineffable mystery. At some point, every machine's software becomes an ineffable mystery. Do you know what is going on in all your 3rd-party Linux drivers, say, from NVIDIA?

What's your point?. That since some software doesn't play nice and doesn't treat its users with respect, we shouldn't value all the software that does? I don't find this agreeable

I don't think I meant that, although it might sound like it. I think you're accusing me of the fallacy of all or nothing, but to me the original argument sounds like an obsession with purity, but clearly one line isn't enough to explain that.

The replies to my original post seem to me to be arguing for 100% transparency from the keyboard to the atoms on the finfets. I don't think I'm strawmanning that (maybe hyperbolizing a little, but with RISC-V proponents, maybe not!)

That sounds like a noble goal, like world peace, ending starvation, and curing all modern ails. However, the extent to which tribalism and out-grouping emerges from people who don't use the "superior, pure" solution is nonsense: just look at the tone of the first post, snidely declaring that this is proof apple is again such a bad solution. That's not helpful, and after hearing similar tech arguments for nearly 35 years online, it is tiresome (ironic). On top of that, the dream of transparency seems unlikely because every open source hardware project I've ever seen has failed [1], there is zero motivation for it.

Again, not to say it isn't a noble goal, but don't fetishize it to the point of outgrouping others.

[1] This is a broad statement, as there is plenty of gadgetry that is open source hardware. I mean: open source hardware for Linux laptops. Or at least hardware that has open source drivers but doesn't have an "Appendix H".

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#239

Post by mlyle » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #232

mlyle wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A billion flies can not be wrong... This willfully pretends not to understand the argument (I hope). My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me is a tad unfair. > I am not personally affected by what you choose to use. I could give two shits about it and go on with my day. OK. Personally, I'm doing quite f…

> My use of MacOS is not likely to make a big difference in the adoption of MacOS, and therefore ascribing all of the massive network effect of usage to me. It's not all to you. But you are contributing to it, and you shouldn't be excusing yourself on the basis of "look at everyone else doing it". > I'm pretty sure that I've done way more to make open systems possible on the desktop than you. This is not a competitio…

> But at least I am willing to call a failing as such.

I think there's room in the world for closed offerings and open offerings, and that they each have their own advantages and contributions to the world (and their own risks).

> The first step to redemption is to accept your own faults.

P'raps calling most of the world "weak-willed" (which I notice you've stealth-edited your prior comment to soften) and implying they may not be "smart" is going a bit beyond accepting your own faults and instead exposing others to harsh judgment for not valuing the things that you do.

Re: What is triald and why is it taking so much disk space?

#240

Post by dTal » Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

gotaquestion wrote: post #179

grumbel wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A system should only be a mystery in so far that you were too lazy to look up how exactly something works. Having "undocumented service" running wild should be unacceptable, even so it has become so common place. Linux isn't free of this, far too many times there is no man-page to tell you what something does, but at least you can dig into the source if you have to.

Not with 3rd party drivers. I think people fetishize the desire to have complete control, and it is a myth. I've been using Linux since 1997, and all the fighting for transparency has been a tempest in a teapot with no progress made at ALL. If people wanted to fight for it, stop using NVIDIA products, but do you see that happening? Not bloody likely. This isn't so much whataboutism as it is about trying to coerce an…

It is not a myth. I know every service running on my personal machines (the Ubuntu workstations at work do get away from me a bit...)

Here's the practical upshot - once, many moons ago, I forwarded port 22 to my home desktop machine so I could access it remotely. I had fail2ban running and regularly checked the logs, so I wasn't worried. What I didn't realize was that maybe 6 months prior I'd made a test account for some purpose, with 'test' as the username and password. Inevitably, some worm managed to guess this combo in less than the 6 tries before fail2ban kicked in. The kicker, though? I was sitting at the machine when it happened, and I could tell immediately. The HDD light was flashing, and I knew it shouldn't be. There was load on the CPU, and I knew there shouldn't be. Checked 'top', spotted the weird process immediately, killed it, locked the account (it never escaped the test account so no harm done) and went on with my day.

Can you imagine that story on Windows? "My hard drive light is blinking and I don't know why" - yep, that's daily life. "There's a weird process in the list" - yep, there's lots of those, good luck tracking down which company is responsible.