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Inside Putin's Circle

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Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#231

Post by yucky »

dillondoyle wrote: post #230
yucky wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's at least telling that we're not allowed to refer to that as a coup, isn't it? I mean, what else would we call a revolution where a democratically elected government is removed from power and replaced with one backed by an adversary, which then immediately rewrites the Constitution to put that country in an adversarial foreign policy position to their powerful neighbor? Is that not a coup? Is that not a reci…

No. 1: Democratically elected stretches reality towards the end. The end was not a free and fair democracy nor free and fair elections. Yanukovych was an autocrat and stooge. copying many of the same tactics as his protector Putin to stay in power beyond public support: suppressing opposition, faking votes with international orgs deemed un true/not valid election, using his private military to intimidate and suppress…

>Even if that act itself wasn't laid out exactly in their constitution

Way to bury the lede. This is the issue. The coup was illegal, was it not? That doesn't even mean it was necessarily wrong, but can we at least be honest and call it unconstitutional?

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#232

Post by dillondoyle »

yucky wrote: post #231
dillondoyle wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. 1: Democratically elected stretches reality towards the end. The end was not a free and fair democracy nor free and fair elections. Yanukovych was an autocrat and stooge. copying many of the same tactics as his protector Putin to stay in power beyond public support: suppressing opposition, faking votes with international orgs deemed un true/not valid election, using his private military to intimidate and suppress…

>Even if that act itself wasn't laid out exactly in their constitution Way to bury the lede. This is the issue. The coup was illegal, was it not? That doesn't even mean it was necessarily wrong, but can we at least be honest and call it unconstitutional?

That's like saying the American Revolution was a coup because it violated King George's imperial laws.

I guess it's a debate about etymology but coup does not fit reality imho.

That also supposes that the laws were being followed in the first place.

They weren't.

People have a right to chose their government. If the government abuses the people and ignores the rule of law and democracy the people are right to seek better government.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#233

Post by galaxyLogic »

hurflmurfl wrote: post #75
galaxyLogic wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes HN is supposed to be about intellectually interesting ideas. And the fight against war and fascism needs those because otherwise we are in deep sh*t. So why not combine the two? The situation with Russia is much about information. HN is about information and IT, no? HN could be the primary forum to discuss ways to counter MIS-information. There seems to be a deep problem in Russia, its citizens are mostly duped b…

Just this once, I want to contribute a "view from the inside" on how things work in Russia [in my opinion]. Sure, some people are hoodwinked by the propaganda. However, a weird misunderstanding is that "if they new what the Truth was, they would surely relent". From what I've gathered growing up in Russia, that's not quite the case. I don't know why, but a lot of people here have a very apathetic view on politics. In…

Yes and but I think the problem is larger than just Ukraine. It is also about elections and people assuming they were fair meaning they don't realize or can not know that there are many more people opposed to the status quo than it would seem.

I think the apathy you describe could be to a large degree result of - misinformation. I don't have the answer nor any particular insight on what it's like inside Russia so I appreciate your input. And I think it's a worthy subject for discussion. The western world is not free of misinformation either.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#234

Post by jagrsw »

polishdude20 wrote: post #227
jagrsw wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically (physically) it's force (as in SI's F).

Oh that makes sense! I'm thinking back to how people say "On jest silny" as in "He is strong" I wouldn't say "He is force"

Mind you, you changed 'strength' (noun) to 'strong' (adj) in your example.

"He is forceful" if you insist on playing this game. Another derived adjective if forcible but it has a bit more elusive meaning (forcible entry into a building)

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#235

Post by yucky »

dillondoyle wrote: post #232
yucky wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even if that act itself wasn't laid out exactly in their constitution Way to bury the lede. This is the issue. The coup was illegal, was it not? That doesn't even mean it was necessarily wrong, but can we at least be honest and call it unconstitutional?

That's like saying the American Revolution was a coup because it violated King George's imperial laws. I guess it's a debate about etymology but coup does not fit reality imho. That also supposes that the laws were being followed in the first place. They weren't. People have a right to chose their government. If the government abuses the people and ignores the rule of law and democracy the people are right to seek be…

>That's like saying the American Revolution was a coup because it violated King George's imperial laws.

I wouldn't have a huge problem with that characterization, I'm not saying all coups are bad just call it what it is though. The main difference in 1776 though is there was no new leader put in place into an existing government system. The entire government was rebuilt from the ground up. In Ukraine, they just installed their guys.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#236

Post by mbg721 »

yucky wrote: post #235
dillondoyle wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying the American Revolution was a coup because it violated King George's imperial laws. I guess it's a debate about etymology but coup does not fit reality imho. That also supposes that the laws were being followed in the first place. They weren't. People have a right to chose their government. If the government abuses the people and ignores the rule of law and democracy the people are right to seek be…

>That's like saying the American Revolution was a coup because it violated King George's imperial laws. I wouldn't have a huge problem with that characterization, I'm not saying all coups are bad just call it what it is though. The main difference in 1776 though is there was no new leader put in place into an existing government system. The entire government was rebuilt from the ground up. In Ukraine, they just insta…

While the structure of the human-filled government positions was indeed rebuilt, there was a continued reliance on English common law, to the point that I believe early after the revolution courts still used English cases as precedent. What I was taught in high-school was that the French Revolution was more tumultuous because it relied much more on tearing down the establishment than the American Revolution did.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#237

Post by Razengan »

istjohn wrote: post #181
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #128

The bit about welcoming the patriotism of war reminded me of the 'conspiracy theory' that Putin blew up some of his own people in order to consolidate his power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings Now, some people believe that, some people don't, but since just before he invaded Ukraine he announced that they were one people, he's literally done the same thing again, blowing up "his own people",…

There really is no question that Putin was behind the bombings. This American Life had a recent episode about them. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/763/transcript

Just like Bush was behind 9/11?

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#238

Post by Razengan »

jacquesm wrote: post #160
Animats wrote: post #41

That's a very useful and important article. So that's who Putin talks to. A very small group who share his worldview: It is the manifest destiny of Mother Russia to have an empire in Eastern Europe. A key point that has emerged from a number of sources is that Putin's crowd has no plan B. This isn't considered by Russia's leadership to be just a military adventure - if it works, great, if it doesn't work, pull back a…

> Historically, this sort of thing ends only when the leader is killed. It can't happen soon enough.

I’m curious, would you have called for the assasination of Bush during the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan?

Or the American presidents during the massacres in Vietnam?

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#239

Post by istjohn »

Razengan wrote: post #237
istjohn wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really is no question that Putin was behind the bombings. This American Life had a recent episode about them. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/763/transcript

Just like Bush was behind 9/11?

Spend 15 minutes looking into it and decide for yourself. The evidence really is compelling.
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