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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#231

Post by s1artibartfast »

thraneh wrote: post #165
credit_guy wrote: post #154

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world. That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained…

What is NATO's objective except to defend the member countries from aggressors? As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, perhaps what is happening is about the control of natural resources. The entire situation is then politically motivated. Aren't NATO and Ukraine then simply actors that have been strung along? (Obviously at great cost to Ukraine now.) This would also explain why EU has been so quick to respo…

NATOs objective has always been to eliminate or minimize the Russian threat to NATO.

An armed an strong Ukraine furthers this goal.

A bloody war between Ukraine and Russia also furthers this goal.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#232

Post by bllguo »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #227
bllguo wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you not understand how pissing Russia off leads to sacrificing Ukrainian lives, or are you choosing not to?

It can be America’s fault for antagonizing Russia, while it is Russia’s fault for shelling college dorms. If this is cognitive dissonance so be it.

If you are fine with the claim America goaded Russia into war, I don't see how you can then say America doesn't have blood on its hands. Clearly both would be culpable under the premise, regardless of who deserves what share of blame.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#233

Post by jazzyjackson »

polski-g wrote: post #197
mantas wrote: post #6

As a Lithuanian... All the „It's the West fault“ crowd is missing the elephant in the room. What is the alternative if West did what Russia want? De-facto Iron curtain still up with tens of millions of people living under authoritarian regimes similar to Belarus and, well, Russia. Yes, it's completely „West fault“ since they could have left us for Russia to eat for lunch. More „West faults“ please.

Ukraine stays neutral and doesn't join Russia nor NATO?

In that case, would you rely on Russia to stay neutral?

Why didn’t staying neutral prevent Russia from occupying Crimea?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#234

Post by [deleted] »

mindslight wrote: post #192
warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I'm no fan of the USian empire, but there is a categorical difference between playing the propaganda / political puppet game to affect a democratic process, and open war against another sovereign country because you don't like the result. All this talk of Russia getting upset that "its" sphere of influence would rather look westward is completely writing off the agency of individual countries that haven't been part o…

[deleted]

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#235

Post by erichocean »

stdbrouw wrote: post #77

Mearsheimer has this annoying tendency to switch between two completely different claims: (a) that the west caused this crisis in a billiard balls sort of way, x leading to y leading to z, and (b) that the west is culpable for this crisis. Yes, obviously NATO expansion and EU overtures to Ukraine must've upset Putin and that may have played a role in all of this, but unless we think that it's reasonable for Russia to…

> unless we think that it's reasonable for Russia to dictate to other countries which alliances to form and what kind of politics to pursue

If by "we" you mean the US, then absolutely, that's what "we" think—hence the crippling sanctions on Venezuela and Cuba in our own sphere of influence for exactly the same reasons.

All great powers do this—US, Russia, China today—and always have.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#236

Post by dragonwriter »

qiskit wrote: post #219
dragonwriter wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia allowed NATO to gobble up country after country all the way to Russia's borders. NATO didn't gobble them up, they voluntarily joined, and they weren't Russian colonies such that it was a matter of Russia “letting” anyone do anything. Russia is the one that has been literally gobbling up (at least parts of, prior to the most recent attempt) neighboring cointries.

That's a very naive take. They weren't russian colonies but they were within its sphere of influence. Just like cuba, canada and the entire western hemisphere is within our sphere of influence. Do you know what would have lead to an invasion of canada? Canada's request to join the soviet union. Every major power has its sphere of influence and limits. The only shame is that we don't get to feel the pain of our action…

> That's a very naive take.

No, it's factual.

> They weren't russian colonies but they were within its sphere of influence

A “sphere of influence” is a collection of peripheries of metropolitan state, a geographically compact set of colonies. Your explanation is self-contradictory.

> Just like cuba, canada and the entire western hemisphere is within our sphere of influence.

They... aren't. Yes, the US asserted something like that with the Monroe Doctrine in the 19th C, but it's not at all the case now. The US has many allies in the Western Hemisphere, some of who might reasonably be viewed as client states, but it definitely doesn't include Cuba or the whole hemisphere.

> Do you know what would have lead to an invasion of canada? Canada's request to join the soviet union.

Whataboutism is silliest when it has to rely on speculative assumptions about ridiculous counterfactuals.

> The only shame is that we don't get to feel the pain of our actions

If you really feel it is a shame that you don't get to feel the pain of the crisis in Ukraine, that's...easily fixable.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#237

Post by erichocean »

mcphage wrote: post #133
erichocean wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Many Ukrainians may die in order that NATO expands, but that's a cost we, the United States of America, are prepared to pay." /sarc

I wonder if Ukraine should possibly get any say in the matter.

Of course, Ukraine can talk all they want (and they are).

At some point, though, boots on the ground matter more than words.

The Russians have evidently reached that point.

As best I can tell, this conflict was entirely, completely, utterly avoidable simply by Ukraine following the terms of the Minsk agreements[0], voted on unanimously by the UN (including Ukraine and Russia).

Why Ukraine chose not to live up to their written agreements is anyone's guess. In hindsight, it looks pretty stupid. It's almost like—when you don't live up to your word—people stop caring what you have to say.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#238

Post by lxm »

Grustaf wrote: post #205
teachrdan wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Ukraine kill journalists who criticize their government? Does it send assassins who murder political dissidents abroad with polonium? Do they imprison and torture people for being queer? It seems your argument that Ukraine is corrupt and poor creates a false equivalence with Russia. It seems to me that Russia under Putin is far, far worse.

There is definitely less violent repression of journalists in Ukraine. But the corruption is worse, and the economy is doing very badly, it's the poorest country in Europe, despite fantastic conditions. I'm obviously not saying it's OK to invade a country just because it's corrupt, and that's obviously not the reason. I'm only talking about the absurd apotheosis of the corrupt Zelensky and the crazy idea that Ukraine…

> the corruption is worse

Source? You keep repeating that, but Transparency International ranked Ukraine above Russia https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

You are correct on the poverty numbers if the peer group is “rest of Europe”, not “rest of USSR alumni”. Is it a reasonable peer group?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#239

Post by warner_of_doom »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #224
warner_of_doom wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.

I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.

Have you looked into what started this crisis in 2014?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#240

Post by warner_of_doom »

johnny22 wrote: post #151
warner_of_doom wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Not unequivocally. Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Zelenskyy ran on peace with Russia, but his puppet masters in Washington would never have allowed that. So, by late-2021, do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acqu…

unless ukraine was actually going to attack russia (and even then really re: preemptive war), none of that makes a difference.

So, unless Cuba was actually going to use those nuclear missiles and unless Turkey was actually going to use those nuclear missiles, the US and the USSR were both wrong in their actions?
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