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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

marginalrevolution.com

231–240 of 263 posts

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said - you can ban none, some, or all Russian participants. That is just simple logic. If you ban some participants, you harm the integrity of the competition by subjective criteria. If you ban none, you are failing to impose a cost for Russian war crimes. It's an awful situation for everyone involved and the best situation would be for an immediate cessation of hostilities and military withdrawal so the ban c…

> Like I said - you can ban none, some, or all Russian participants. I can understand sanctions, they specifically target the country. I can understand sanctions against individuals who are supporting Putin like the oligarchs. I can understand cutting financial, business ties as they specifically target the country. It starts to get difficult based on the criteria of nationality, there are a variety of reasons to ban…

The point here is the concept of Sportswashing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportswashing

When he plays professional chess, Grischuk _is_ representing Russia, he's not just an individual. A win for him is a win for Russia, and the chess commentators constantly say things like "I'm excited for the Hungary vs Russia final" and "looks like Russia will come out on top in this game".

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. It would simply be a good thing if Americans were reviled for waging wars of aggression on other states. That would mean fewer people in the US would support wars and there would be fewer wars. That would be good. It's at least worth a shot. Adam Smith wrote - "In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of…

>I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. So after 9/11, should we have sanctioned all Muslims? When a black man commits a crime, should we round up and sanction all blacks? We are all entirely responsible for what we do as individuals and not responsible at all for what other people do.

Black people and Muslims aren't an organized group with leaders and armed forces. Russians are.

It's very sad and unfair that individual Russians will suffer for their leaders misdeeds. But, I think the average Russian should prefer sanctions to alternative means of solving Russian aggression.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russians have been carpet bombing innocent Syrians for years. Even using thermobarbic bombs against them, with no sanctioning from the West. Obviously the middle east is of little consequence in these discussions for all parties.

You’re not wrong there. The BBC interviewed a former deputy prosecutor general of Ukraine, who told the network: “It’s very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blond hair … being killed every day.” Rather than question or challenge the comment, the BBC host flatly replied, “I understand and respect the emotion.”

In one of the "Russian Roulette" episode when the Ukrainian army circle and bomb some city in Dombas, the journalist notice a swastika pendant on one of the soldier and ask if he is not afraid of being misrepresented as a fascist, before moving on. Double standards at its best.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#234
The cancel culture is strong. What this war has made us understand is that some people are more equal than others, therefore, they have the privilege of standing on higher moral ground to impose upon the rest their two speed morality. We're seing the world for what it trully is.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#235

This is getting really stupid. Anytime there is some major event we always work to try to ensure that people appreciate there is a difference between the people of a country and the bad actors of a country - even when those bad actors are the government. But now because it's our favorite geopolitical enemy, everything goes out the window. Imagine if the victims of our wars (or their partners) were more influential an…

I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. It would simply be a good thing if Americans were reviled for waging wars of aggression on other states. That would mean fewer people in the US would support wars and there would be fewer wars. That would be good. It's at least worth a shot. Adam Smith wrote - "In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of…

You obviously do not support what we are doing in a vacuum. We are trying to hurt and ruin the lives of people who had nothing to do with something (and some, as in this case, who were even actively outspoken against it) because of their nationality. We are becoming the worst of everything that the "liberal world order" is supposed to stand against. The reason you might be okay with this is because of Machiavellianism - a belief that carrying out large scale injustice might trigger chaos and even a revolution/coup/insurrection in Russia and eventually result in a nation that might be more aligned with our geopolitical interests.

When you look at history the one thing you will find is that things rarely work out how you want them to, and more often than not the resultant end is often nothing like you desired. We successfully worked to overthrow the democratic, secular, and relatively benign and democratic government of Iran in 1953 and replaced them with an exceptionally unpopular puppet monarchy. Then in 1979 the Iranians had a genuine revolution of their own against our puppet monarch and installed their own government. This is where the current radical Islamic government came from that, for some reason, really doesn't like the West. Today we'd give anything to have the Iran of 1953, but that's a bridge long since turned to ash.

And the other tales are endless as well. The point of this is that Machiavellianism relies on a claim that the ends justify the means. But even if one believes that, you can't really make that argument in good faith when you cannot realistically claim to have any idea of what the ends will be. All that one can be certain of is that we will live through the means. So we are turning into tyrants for what may very well be an even worse future for Russia and us alike.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. It would simply be a good thing if Americans were reviled for waging wars of aggression on other states. That would mean fewer people in the US would support wars and there would be fewer wars. That would be good. It's at least worth a shot. Adam Smith wrote - "In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of…

>I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. So after 9/11, should we have sanctioned all Muslims? When a black man commits a crime, should we round up and sanction all blacks? We are all entirely responsible for what we do as individuals and not responsible at all for what other people do.

If you wanted to promote vigilantism, that's pretty much exactly what you'd do.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. It would simply be a good thing if Americans were reviled for waging wars of aggression on other states. That would mean fewer people in the US would support wars and there would be fewer wars. That would be good. It's at least worth a shot. Adam Smith wrote - "In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of…

You obviously do not support what we are doing in a vacuum. We are trying to hurt and ruin the lives of people who had nothing to do with something (and some, as in this case, who were even actively outspoken against it) because of their nationality. We are becoming the worst of everything that the "liberal world order" is supposed to stand against. The reason you might be okay with this is because of Machiavellianis…

You have a puzzling, and, I think, bespoke, notion of "Machiavellianism". If a cancer patient undergoes painful therapies to cure the disease, is that Machiavellianism, because the ends, curing cancer, justifies the painful means?

I would say no. That's simply an example of doing something unpleasant in pursuit of a larger goal. Typically, when people use the term Machiavellianism they are referring to doing immoral and objectionable things in pursuit of personal goals. That's not really the case here at all.

Free people have no moral obligation to transact with one another. There is no moral obligation to permit people to your chess tournament and no moral violation in denying them. When we decide that the crimes of the Russian government, acting, at least nominally, on behalf of the Russian people reach a critical point we can decide to discontinue business and relationships with the Russian people.

Perhaps you think, as others in this thread have suggested, that this is something like a civil rights action. Indeed, in the US we have laws prohibiting businesses from denying service to people purely on skin color. In my view this is more of an ethical choice than a moral one, but even if you think it's a moral necessity not to deny service to someone based on their immutable characteristics, that is irrelevant. Russians are being denied service not because the world has suddenly become slavophobic, but as a condemnation of their country's crimes. Put another way, it would be wrong for a restaurant to turn away a customer because they are black, but completely understandable for a restaurant to turn away a customer because that customer is OJ Simpson.

I assume you would say that individuals are unlike countries, and I think that's true. Some individual Russians oppose their government's attack on Ukraine. Alas, there is no way to scope sanctions such that they hurt only people with the wrong opinions. There is a simple way to scope sanctions such that they hurt Russians though - i.e. make the sanctions apply to Russia. (And here I use a colloquial sense of the word "sanction" that I mean to extend even to non-governmental groups making decisions to refuse service to or interaction with Russians).

Finally, I agree with what I think you mean - which is that it's very possible for things to work out in ways other than what are expected. I expect that the majority of "things" work out roughly as expected throughout history but it is unremarkable when they do. If most of our choices were going awry civilization would probably unstable.

That said, I agree with the spirit - it's hard to predict the consequences of our actions. But, so what? It's hard to predict the consequences of sanctions and hard to predict the consequences of no sanctions. My own reasoning is: a war is too much, nothing is too little, and sanctions seem about right. Sanctions must hurt or they are meaningless. I would not want to see a headline like "Russian school hit by stray bomb, hundreds dead." A headline like "Russian chess player kicked out of tournament" seems about right for unintended consequences.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.

> Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't…

You gotta be kidding me. The winter Olympics just ended. Who did you think Valieva was skating for? Herself? There's a huge team behind each competitor and they're based around nations. What about the ice hockey team? Bunch of neutrals who happened to have a history of playing together, having grown up in Russia, and got to the final? Totally disingenuous to not call them the Russian team, and nobody thought otherwise either. At some point you have to common sense and admit the whole neutral flag thing is just a convenient way for the IOC to avoid some tough decisions.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#239
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is simple. If Ukrainians can’t play, then neither should Russians.

That is simple logic! So why are Russians being banned, considering Ukrainians can play in the tournament?

The ones who are able to travel while their country is invaded, yes.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#240
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think he didn't fake 48M votes?

That would be an astonishing feat, just logistically. Do you have evidence of fraud on that scale?

Ummm, yes. There’s Shpilkin’s famous research (dont know if available in English) suggesting that about 30% of latest Duma election ballots were fake.

And what people also don’t understand is that they falsify on all levels. First, they persecute their opponents and deny them access to media. If they think an opponent has a chance and isn’t sufficiently toothless, they just don’t register them. Then they cast fake ballots during actual voting. There are reports of fraud during counting: police is known to remove independent observers from the room. If the results at this point are not satisfactory enough, they rewrite the numbers in counting protocols. And even if that’s not sufficient (like in Lukashenko’s case), they can just declare any result they want and beat/jail anyone who disagrees.

I think western commentators on Russian elections/popular opinions just can’t wrap their heads around how corrupt the system is.

Most people in Russia aren’t pro-Putin. They’re indifferent, don’t think about these things much and mind their own business.

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