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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#231

Post by deutschewelle »

friedturkey wrote: post #89
honkycat wrote: post #28

By all accounts octopus intelligence is extremely overblown. And "sentience" is an extremely low bar. Compare the intelligence of a cow or pig or similar mammal to an octopus and the mammal will DESTROY the octopus. We tolerate farming these animals. Much to our own detriment in terms of health, and nutrition, and environmental impact, land usage, and water usage. Plus there is the problem of breeding MRSA. Plus they…

> Compare the intelligence of a cow or pig or similar mammal to an octopus and the mammal will DESTROY the octopus. Octopuses are incredible because we've found the opposite. Octopuses are solving pretty complicated puzzles oftentimes for fun the same way people do. Cows don't. Cows do have social bonds closer to humans, though.

How do you know cows dont have fun too or engage in complex problem solving? Pigs seem quite intelligent also and capable of solving puzzles as do crows. Seems like having fun is a natural part of all sentient beings as boredom is inevitable.

Could it be that the novelty of discovering that octopus, a crustacean after thought, could suddenly be as intelligent if not more than the pig (thought to be more intelligent than a canine), prevent you from consuming it? Is the irony of people shouting Octopus Lives Matter protesting against its farming but not the massive industrial scale beef/pork production capacities not clear?

Why even stop there? What if tomorrow you learn plants were able to perform puzzles and solve problems, would you view your veggies differently?

An awful criteria for determining what is morally sound to consume as food, can humans also be consumed if they are unable to solve a simple Rubrik's cube? What if they are inside a box where your perception of whether the subject is having fun or not determines their life or death, upon the latter, you are morally safe and sound in partaking in cannibalism?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#232

Post by croes »

sweetheart wrote: post #113
croes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not always possible to get all the nutrients you need without animal products, either because they are not available or because the price is too high.

Okay, then if that point is ceded, would you agree then that we ought to only eat the fewest animal products necessary to get those nutrients in safe levels? People always argue against veganism by saying “Ah well, can’t get all my B12 from plants so I guess eating this McDonalds quarter pounder is justified!”. Why not remove everything else that is an animal product lacking the nutrients you need, and only eat what…

>Okay, then if that point is ceded, would you agree then that we ought to only eat the fewest animal products necessary to get those nutrients in safe levels?

Yes

But we also need to reduce the numbers of our pets. Especially free strolling cats are a massive hit to the ecosystem.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#233

Post by jamiek88 »

kodah wrote: post #193
rtkaratekid wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep animals if the intent is to slaughter them at some point.

In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a pain…

One of my great regrets in life so far is shirking that responsibility and selfishly allowing a dog to last too long. I’ve learned from it and since had to make that decision again and actually made a decision this time but the guilt remains. It’s a dreadful responsibility.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#234

Post by deutschewelle »

FiberBundle wrote: post #221
deutschewelle wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you ar…

> When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. > Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you are free to farm, destroy and eat, whom by all definition ju…

> The existence of an adaptive mechanism in an organism doesn't mean that any organisms that have such mechanisms are sentient to similar degrees.

If there is an intelligence behind such mechanism, it still would not fit your definition of sentiency correct?

How are you so certain that there isn't an intelligence to all living things, plant, trees, insects and animals? How can such intelligence not adapt to its environment and instruct its physical medium to change its behavior or rearrange itself spatial temporally to maximize survivability?

Is that not the definition of a lifeform? the drive to survive?

really bizarre you would limit your horizon here, is it to double down on your original argument that is in alignment with what the article is proposing and the rest of us are commenting at the irony of deciding what is ethically edible or not in a country where industrial scale farming of all things sentient?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#235

Post by TaylorAlexander »

puchatek wrote: post #207
AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

Don't they mind having their kids taken away from them though?

That is one of the saddest parts, and one that a lot of people ignore.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#236

Post by renewiltord »

If you’re going to the Big Island, there is a little place where they let you play with octopuses. They’re figuring out how to farm that species there.

You can feed them and stuff and you can play with them and they’ll touch you with their tentacles.

Anyway, I found the whole operation quite interesting. They were trying to farm them to prevent them from being over fished in the wild. Interesting objective.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#237

Post by TaylorAlexander »

handmodel wrote: post #24
pranith wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

This is what I don't quite get. Perhaps eating octopi seems gratuitous since they are expensive and not integrated into everyday customs/life. But hard to imagine an octopus is on a higher status than a pig or a cow which are fairly close to us evolutionarily.

Which is why it makes sense to simply not eat any of them. It seems to be the healthiest option too, as long as you have access to enough healthy calories from plants.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#238

Post by laumars »

cjonas wrote: post #226
tommoor wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to think about it – Imagine a superior alien civilization farming humans and killing them for food at 12-24 months. Does that feel acceptable?

a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place? I'd opt to be eaten. Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...

I’m not a vegetarian and I still really hate that “if I wasn’t farmed I wouldn’t exist at all” argument because it’s really just an excuse to be shitty to other life forms.

The fact is if you didn’t exist then you wouldn’t care either way, so it’s a moot argument. The fact that you do exist changes that, not excuses it. Or in other words: we are not doing other species a favour by eating them.

It’s also worth noting that many of the species we far isn’t the natural evolution of that animal. They’ve been bread to be fatter, or more docile etc. Many of the species suffer from health issues due to breeding that their natural cousins do not. The reason a lot of these animals seem suited to farming is because man has bread them that way. This isn’t doing these animals a favour either. It’s purely for man’s own benefit.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#239

Post by WaxProlix »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #201
WaxProlix wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, the answer was yes. I stopped eating pigs first, and then cows and other mammals, and then octopi (octopodes?). I've been cutting back further on chicken and fish, too, though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. I don't know that it's morally right or something, but it doesn't cost much and the potential upside seems high enough to do it.

> though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. See, I feel like this just erodes from your argument. There’s not necessarily any trauma at all to the chickens or the cows involved in the production of eggs or milk. Trying to group that with the consumption of meat feels just very irrational.

There isn't necessarily, but there is in practice nearly 100% of the time - enough so that it doesn't matter.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#240

Post by bryanrasmussen »

cjonas wrote: post #226
tommoor wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to think about it – Imagine a superior alien civilization farming humans and killing them for food at 12-24 months. Does that feel acceptable?

a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place? I'd opt to be eaten. Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...

>a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate?

So basically the plot of the Never Let Me Go. Except you can't really get the blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate thing if the organisms are intelligent.

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