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The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#231

Post by PathOfEclipse »

dustyleary wrote: post #225
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears we dont really have enough commonly accepted facts to have a fruitful conversation. Welcome to American politics. That you were willing to have a dialog at all with someone who disagrees with you might set you above the average. My big picture take is that democracy is good, and depriving people of votes is bad. How about this big picture take? Democracy is good, and citizen votes deserve protection. Every…

> And yes, it's incredibly partisan for you to claim that republicans are trying to "reduce democracy." Is it, though? My belief is that voter fraud is basically a non-issue, that it doesn't really happen very much at all, and that it is a bogus argument put forth by the Republicans to give an excuse for why they are so consistently fighting to not allow people to vote. Google search "does voter fraud really happen",…

I'm not going to take the time to go through all your links, so I just picked one I thought was interesting: McConnell's "naked power grab" comment. Here is the view from the other side: https://www.businessinsider.com/mcconnell-democratic-bill-el...

From what I read, McConnell thinks most federal workers vote democrat. This makes sense in that if you work for the government you are probably pro-big-government. If they got a week off, they would just use that time to campaign for democrats, giving democrats an extra advantage. Also, it would result in an undue burden on the taxpayer, apparently to the tune of 4 billion a year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/04/18/new...

Here is a more comprehensive rebuttal of this H.R. 1 bill: https://republicans-cha.house.gov/democrat-politician-protec...

And here is the an op-ed written by McConnell himself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/call-hr-1-what-it-is...

I'm not going to claim McConnell is right, but I will claim that from a quick search I can find there is a reasonable other side to this story different from "Republicans want less voters".

Since I've already spent too much time on this thread, I'll just say I have convinced someone to be more open-minded in the future and be willing to research more than one side of the issue.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#232

Post by fortuna86 »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #68

If you didn't buy that Iraq had WMDs and that there was a BinLaden to Saddam connection, you were on the side of misinformation. The entire media and political establishment was at odds with your take. If you clamp down on misinformation, you're doing nothing more than allowing the establishment to be wrong without consequence, and creating consequence when the average person is wrong. No one labeled the NY Times a p…

Wow you stepped on every single information landmine possible.

The NYT had commentators reporting on what they thought was true. They have done many years of introspection about their rule in the Iraq war, this is not what "perpetuator of misinformation" do - they double down.

> Snopes and Politifact have outright lied and no one cares.

What is one thing either site has gotten wrong (objectively, not your opinion) and refuses to correct ? Everyone makes mistakes, how we respond to those mistakes is the distinction we should care about.

> This isn't about who's right and who wrong. Its about power.

Sounds like projection of what you believe the digital information space to be.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#233

Post by fortuna86 »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #193
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone proposing it that doesn't also legislate for every voter to be issued with one is being selective. > The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread

Yes, they are selecting for citizens with a valid ID. That's the point! And, no, the law doesn't need to ensure every citizen gets a voting ID. How would one even do that? The voter rolls are out of date and don't contain every citizen. Also, how would you ensure the right IDs get to the right people? You, as a citizen, do not have an inherent right to vote without having the ability to prove you are who you claim to…

> You, as a citizen, do not have an inherent right to vote

Incorrect. Every citizen can vote, without any additional barriers designed to prevent them from doing so. Poll tax, literacy tests, ID laws, etc. They are all illegal in that they deny the RIGHT to vote.

If voter fraud were common, you might have a point about needed to "prove you are who you claim to be". The problem is, it's incredibly rare. And there are checks and audits done after the fact to ensure fraud is low. You simply do not need to check ID at the polls to ensure someone is not voting fraudulently.

And you know this.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#234

Post by loudtieblahblah »

fortuna86 wrote: post #232
loudtieblahblah wrote: post #68

If you didn't buy that Iraq had WMDs and that there was a BinLaden to Saddam connection, you were on the side of misinformation. The entire media and political establishment was at odds with your take. If you clamp down on misinformation, you're doing nothing more than allowing the establishment to be wrong without consequence, and creating consequence when the average person is wrong. No one labeled the NY Times a p…

Wow you stepped on every single information landmine possible. The NYT had commentators reporting on what they thought was true. They have done many years of introspection about their rule in the Iraq war, this is not what "perpetuator of misinformation" do - they double down. > Snopes and Politifact have outright lied and no one cares. What is one thing either site has gotten wrong (objectively, not your opinion) an…

The Free Beacon reported that a source told them the crack kits could specifically include pipes, and the story went viral

https://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/biden-admin-to-f...

Snopes labeled the reporting with a big red X and MOSTLY FALSE rating . . . while confirming the Free Beacon reporting as entirely true. Here’s how they explained it:

> In 2022, a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services substance abuse harm reduction grant did require recipients to provide safer smoking kits to existing drug users. In distributing grants, priority would be given to applicants serving historically underserved communities. However what’s false is this was just one of around 20 components of the grant program and far from its most prominent or important one.

Snopes claims that the news about smoking kits is true. It’s just not important.

Or here’s Facebook’s “Partly False” Fact Check (https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2022/02/fact-check-biden-...) that also confirms the Free Beacon reporting:

> While a description of the HHS grants stated that the grantees would be required to buy materials like safe smoking kits and supplies to "enhance harm reduction efforts," such kits and supplies are just a few of the many materials that grantees can utilize.

This happens all the time.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#235

Post by feurio »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #226
feurio wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would I go onto Twitter and say that, unless I was a massive racist? And why, as a doughty protector of free speech would I not be perfectly fine with anyone using their own right of freedom of speech to reply to me? Robustly. Is it just that you want freedom without consequences? Because you're a racist? No accusing - just "asking questions". You gave me one link - to Wikipedia, which you then seem to have a…

Ok, I'll bite. Google "Grievance studies affair". It provides a chilling look into how wokes are corrupting science in order to advance their political agenda. Is this example sufficient for you?

There's no "bite" - it's just a genuine question.

Thank you for providing literally the first response with a concrete example.

I shall have a read - its late here and I have to bed down shortly.

Certainly a poor peer review system is an issue that should be addressed.

Also rather worrying is the unethical nature of submitting bogus research, not getting informed consent from those being experimented on and the lack of a control group.

Is this the best example you have?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#236

Post by fortuna86 »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #229
cgriswald wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is that Trump attempted a coup and failed to interrupt it, but that is okay because it wasn't a serious coup and other corruption exists.

I am legitimately not convinced he was attempting a coup. I am willing to admit I am wrong on this. I've read accounts from leftwing media sources and from their wording it sounds like what Trump did was really bad. I've read accounts from rightwing sources and from their wording it doesn't sound bad at all. I have not done a great deal to try to reconcile the two and decide where the truth lies. Right now, I believe…

> I am legitimately not convinced he was attempting a coup

I believe you. No one thinks their guy is the bad guy, it's human nature.

> I believe Trump legitimately thought the election was stolen

Again, this is your blind spot. You give a man who deserves no benefit of doubt infinite rope.

But you are deluding yourself. You are to the right of your own party leadership on this matter: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/593339-mcconnell-breaks-...

You don't refute any of the points, you merely state your opinion over and over "I don't think Trump meant to do anything wrong". Of course, intention cannot be known by anyone, so arguing in favor of what is unknowable brings this whole discussion to a standstill.

Also, people still go to jail for crimes even if they aren't intended (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter). So I don't particularly care if Trump meant to organize a violent attack on the nation's capital at the exact time and place the certification was taking place, he still did it.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#237

Post by fortuna86 »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #184
fortuna86 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> disgracefully Amazing all the words that some come up with to discount what was a violent attempt at staying in power after losing an election.

It was just one word, actually. And, as we are learning now, Hillary Clinton's team paid to infiltrate into whitehouse servers as part of efforts to delegitimize Trump's election: https://www.dailywire.com/news/bombshell-clinton-campaign-pa... We also know now that the russian collusion hoax was entirely fabricated by Hillary's team: https://nypost.com/2021/11/04/the-real-collusion-was-the-cre... I don't agree with w…

I started to respond to this, claiming a DNS request is "infiltrating into whitehouse servers". This is a technology forum, do I really need to explain to you why that is complete and utter rubbish?

Linking to opinion pieces by right wing media isn't a way of making an argument btw, it's outsourcing your thinking to partisans that can tell you want you want to hear.

I don't like a lot of things about politics these days, but excusing political violence because it's "your side", and you assume they would "never be actually violent" is a basic logical fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Please try and see the blinders you have on regarding nearly everything you've said.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#238

Post by feurio »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #223
feurio wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I'm just stuggling to see why being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination is bad thing. If you would like to explain why it is, please do.

This disingenuous line of argument is reminiscent of Antifa greenwashing that was common a few years ago. Feign ignorance, pretend you have no idea what kind of people identify as Antifa, and then ask "Isn't fascism bad? So why is it bad to be anti-fascist?" ...while Antifa is literally burning down cars and shops indiscriminately...

What is disingenuous about saying that the literal definition of woke seems like a good thing?

I said nothing about Antifa - why are you creating a straw man? Stick to woke.

If you would like to propose a new term that encompases the original defintion of woke and something else then feel free - hyer-woke, or something. Why do you want to change the defintion of words?

And, are you a fascist?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#239

Post by fortuna86 »

brianfitz wrote: post #178
fortuna86 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything, people seem to be better-informed than in the past [citation needed] more information =/ better informed, the same way drinking from a firehose doesn't allow you to ingest more water than drinking slowly from a glass. This point missed ironically by a website called "slowboring.com"

I believe he was using the source article. One example was a leap in public polling around how our government functions (33% jump in being able to identify the three branches of the US federal government).

Congratulations to us all on the bump in basic civics knowledge.

Meanwhile, on more important matters, acceptance of vaccines (which used to be nearly universally viewed as safe and effective) have plummeted.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7...

Similar numbers can be found about faith in democracy, views toward fellow citizens, etc. It's not just lack of knowledge, it's the embracing and polarizing extremes.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#240

Post by Anthony-G »

president wrote: post #172
BitwiseFool wrote: post #23

I've also noticed that the term "willful ignorance" gets thrown around a lot more nowadays. There is a sizeable contingent of people who are so convinced that what they believe is the absolute truth that any disagreement or critique must therefore be out of malice rather than genuine disagreement.

Most people are not willing to have a Socratic style debate let alone admit they could ever be wrong. That is the root of the problem in our society today.

Hacker News is the only large forum where I see anything close to Socratic dialogues: At least a few times a week, I find myself upvoting both sides of a debate because the participants are really listening to each other and (seemingly) making a genuine effort to understand where the other side is coming from.
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