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Laravel 9

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Re: Laravel 9

#231

Post by fendy3002 »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #219
fendy3002 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not convinced that smaller PHP projects, at least, might not be better off without frameworks at all Uh having experienced the old pre-codeigniter php, I don't really recommended it. Without proper controller separation (using twig as rendering engine for example) it poses the risk for the business logic to be tangled with view. Not to mention that it's hard to do routing with native php, except the simple [fol…

> Without proper controller separation (using twig as rendering engine for example) it poses the risk for the business logic to be tangled with view. Well, you should also quote the part in my comment about "use Composer to pull in specific packages that you really need." :) I'm not suggesting "roll everything on your own," necessarily: if you want to use Twig, or another templating engine, add that as a Composer pac…

Okay that's a fair approach, though it's still not recommended for everyone especially those who isn't much familiar with those packages setup.

Re: Laravel 9

#232

Post by FinalBriefing »

jstummbillig wrote: post #132

All else being equal, how do we feel about Rails 7 vs Laravel 9 in 2022? Giving the breadth of both frameworks I am pretty certain there has to be one objectively better choice. Which one is it? Why?

I think Rail's latest take on frontend build tools is a great direction. They really messed up their Webpack integration in my opinion, and Laravel Mix isn't much better (but it is a lot easier to use).

Overall, I think it would just be a matter of which language you know better.

Re: Laravel 9

#233

Post by midrus »

cutler wrote: post #213
_xnmw wrote: post #155

As a solo bootstrapped SaaS founder that literally relies on my app to pay my rent and food, I owe my sanity to Laravel. I've been doing web development for 10+ years. Nothing else understands the needs of a business owner AND solo programmer like Laravel does. I worked with Python (Flask/Django) for (4+ years) longer than I worked with Laravel (only 1 year), and yet I'm already 10x more productive in Laravel than I…

There's nothing in your list which doesn't have an equivalent in the Rails and Django ecosystems. Laravel is just another MVC framework built with a dynamically-typed scripting language. Rails, Django, Laravel - take your pick. Same wine in a similar bottle.

I've worked 8+ years with Django and the last 2~3 years with Laravel. Other than the admin, I don't miss anything from Django. Laravel is so much better in almost every other aspect.

Re: Laravel 9

#234

Post by chipotle_coyote »

_xnmw wrote: post #165
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #70

Personally, I liked Laravel when I was first investigating it years ago, but was always a touch put off by the pervasive "I am beautiful, adore me" undercurrent throughout its design, documentation, and even comments. I'll be the first to admit that's not a rational critique. Having said that, though, Laravel is relatively unusual among major frameworks in that it doesn't seem to have been developed in tandem with a…

> Laravel has to jump through a lot of hoops behind the scenes to do what it does, leaving you with a framework that isn't particularly nimble and design patterns that often aren't particularly applicable to the rest of the PHP world. And tell me, do you use React? Talk about jumping through hoops just to print HTMl. Personally I'm very glad Laravel was written in PHP, because: 1) you can still use raw PHP in the tem…

Your response reads to me like you think I was dunking on PHP, but I wasn't. I don't feel like PHP is a particularly great language to write a DSL-style web framework in, but that's largely because -- as I was trying to suggest with the part about "Use Composer to pull in specific packages you really need" -- modern PHP mostly just doesn't feel like it needs a framework to me. That's precisely because, as you put it, PHP was built ONLY for the web, and the language's earlier quirkiness has really been smoothed over in the last decade. I like PHP. We are closer to being in agreement than you may think. :)

(Although I might take Ruby over PHP, depending on specific circumstances. Ruby is just such a nice language, and Rails has gotten pretty darn good once it stopped being "interesting" and could settle down to making itself productive. Maybe that will one day happen with Node…)

Re: Laravel 9

#235

Post by subsaharancoder »

Getting started with Laravel on Mac required me to fire up Docker desktop which I don't particularly care for but I proceeded because I like to try out new things, so I followed the documentation https://laravel.com/docs/9.x#your-first-laravel-project:

- Fired up Docker desktop - ran curl -s "https://laravel.build/example-app" | bash and "cd example-app" - typed "./vendor/bin/sail up" and got an error "no such file or directory: ./vendor/bin/sail" - Deleted the example-app and ran curl -s "https://laravel.build/example-app" | bash and "cd example-app" - typed "./vendor/bin/sail up" and got another error "no configuration file provided: not found"

By this time my MBP fan sounds like an Airbus A380 getting ready to takeoff and I'm already frustrated with the framework, not sure what I'm missing!!

Re: Laravel 9

#236

Post by chipotle_coyote »

tnorthcutt wrote: post #128
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out Nova, which is also paid. I don't want to come across as "nobody should give Laravel money," to be clear. I'm just observing that Laravel is essentially a commercial open-source enterprise in a way that Rails and Django aren't. Models like this seem to be a bit more common in the PHP world. (e.g., Sensio Labs makes their money by teaching and consulting on Symfony, Laravel LLC makes money from Laravel ad…

You're right, thanks! Edited to add Nova (which I think is a fantastic product, and is worth far more than the $199 it costs).

I admit my initial thought looking at Nova was "this is free with Django!", but I'm pretty sure Nova does a lot more. :) (Django's automatic admin interface still had a distinct "state of the art for 2006" vibe the last time I looked, although to be fair it's been a few years.)

Re: Laravel 9

#237

Post by throwaway829 »

subsaharancoder wrote: post #235

Getting started with Laravel on Mac required me to fire up Docker desktop which I don't particularly care for but I proceeded because I like to try out new things, so I followed the documentation https://laravel.com/docs/9.x#your-first-laravel-project : - Fired up Docker desktop - ran curl -s " https://laravel.build/example-app " | bash and "cd example-app" - typed "./vendor/bin/sail up" and got an error "no such fil…

The docs push you in the docker direction, but they also have Laravel Valet which "is a development environment for macOS minimalists": https://laravel.com/docs/9.x/valet

A lot of Laravel devs use Valet instead of Docker.

Re: Laravel 9

#239

Post by tylerlwsmith »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #97
unfocussed_mike wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I have never once interacted with Laravel's commercial model, or felt that I am being engineered into it. I just don't give it another thought.

I haven't interacted with it, either. "Engineered into it" would be too strong a phrasing, but it's hard not to get the impression Laravel's creator(s) really, really want you to use their other services. I mean, compare the menu bars of rubyonrails.org, djangoproject.com, and laravel.com: Rails's first links are "blogs" and "guides"; Django's first links are "overview" and "download"; Laravel's first links are "Forg…

This is totally fair. A few years back I worked on a Laravel project when both me and the other dev were fairly new to Laravel, and neither of us were particularly adept sysadmins. Forge was a life-saver when it came time to deploy.

Now that I'm _much_ more experienced with Linux server management, I found a mix of Laravel's official deployment docs and some community tutorials more than enough to spin up my Laravel apps on Digital Ocean.

I think that Laravel providing Forge as an official happy path for deployment is to the benefit of newer Laravel developers. I've listened to the hosts of the Django Chat Podcast lament about deployment being a big hurdle for newer Django developers. I'm glad that Laravel has an easy button. As someone who is now more experienced, I'm also glad that I don't feel forced to use Forge and other services by the Laravel team. I might use it again at some point though.

Re: Laravel 9

#240

Post by chakhs »

Laravel is amazing until you need to do something non-trivial that does not follow the laravel way of doing things so you find yourself fighting the framework.

Everything is coupled to Eloquent for example, and while you can use another ORM, the whole ecosystem and 3rd party libraries need Eloquent, so you have to choose to either do things the Laravel way to take advantage of the community, or write everything on your own.

P.S: It's been 3 years since I used Laravel, not sure if things have changed.

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