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How should net metering affect your electric bill?

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Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#231

Post by sidewndr46 »

nomel wrote: post #212
Bilal_io wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"fear" is necessary because I was stuck at an apartment for 3 days and nowhere to go with no heat and no water when the weather outside was -17 degrees.

As my comment suggested, you could change that fear to inconvenience with minimal preparation: put some water jugs, canned/packaged food, and blankets+cheap snow outfit in your closet, and throw in a little campground propane burner for a nice warm meal. -17 outdoors is a warm ski day indoors. If you've known anyone that lives in a cold part of the country, having some preparation is an extremely common practice.

That would actually do something to address the risk, removing their ability to complain.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#232

Post by manquer »

rhino369 wrote: post #188
manquer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living close to a water source or reservoir doesn’t make conservation less important.It is a intricate system with complex interconnects A lot of places downstream will be using the water from your Lake /Dam /river as their only source. Same reason why in some states like Colarado it is illegal to rain water harvest. Riparian rights and ethics are complex

>Living close to a water source or reservoir doesn’t make conservation less important. It doesn't necessarily make conservation less important. But it certainly does in some places like Chicago. They pull water from the same water shed that it eventually flows back into after use. And they control how much water flows from Lake Michigan into the Chicago river (and eventually the Mississippi River) via a damn. It's pr…

I don't have detailed knowledge of Great lakes to give you specifics on why this is a problem

However generally no water system is closed or independent of each other. Precipitation, weather and other cycles (wind, heat, underground etc) make even small changes in distant places drastically impact outcomes anywhere ( the OG butterfly effect).

So I would still say conservation of use is independent of how abundant it seems locally and how disconnected it looks on the surface to other problems.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#233

Post by ed25519FUUU »

yuliyp wrote: post #227
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #33

This article carries way too much water for PG&E. Sad, but I guess since we're gearing up for a net-metering 3.0[1] fight we'll see more and more articles like this one. Here's the places where I think it misses the mark: * The energy generation costs listed by the author actually includes rooftop solar. PG&E paid exactly $0 for you to spend $30k installing the panels, so that number is low for PG&E for a reason. * P…

Where is this mythical $0.40/kWh price for electricity (not transmission) actually occurring? Net metering does not expire after a year. You can continue to get any power you need matching the power you had put in on a 1:1 basis. The 1c/kWh is for the excess. Most of PG&E's infrastructure is transmission infrastructure, not generation. They wouldn't be building power plants themselves, anyway. Net metering allows roo…

> Where is this mythical $0.40/kWh price for electricity (not transmission) actually occurring?

The standard residental TOU plan for PG&E peak usage ranges from $0.33 to $0.45 depending on the season. Have a look yourself[1]. But PG&E actually classes your solar power as green energy and sells it to "solar choice" customers at even HIGHER prices[2].

> Net metering does not expire after a year. You can continue to get any power you need matching the power you had put in on a 1:1 basis. The 1c/kWh is for the excess.

There's no roll over of any extra generated power. You use it or you lose it. If you have $300 in retail credits they'll cash you out for $15 which is the wholesale price of it and you'll start again for the next year.

> Net metering allows rooftop solar to effectively get paid for electricity at a much higher rate than PG&E or local electricity cooperatives than would be paying on the open market.

You're paid in credits. Kind of like getting a gift card that expires in a year or days depending on when it was generated. It's non-transferrable and for all intents and purposes disappears at the end of the year when they true you up. To think people paying $30k for rooftop solar are somehow taking advantage of PG&E is laughable, especially given PG&E has a green energy mandate and doesn't have to pay a dime for that $30k installation.

1. https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra...

2. https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/solar-and-vehicles/opt...

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#234

Post by ed25519FUUU »

14 wrote: post #75
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly right. Now that PG&E has built a sizable solar installation base, the NEM3.0 move is to make sure they can capture more profit. Their plan for passing NEM3.0 seems to be to cry and moan about how they're being taken advantage of by individuals who paid $30k to install solar panels on their homes.

People need to be off the grid completely and when that happens what will these power companies do? If we ever get the affordable battery system that are always just around the corner that will allow this to happen. I look forward to the day. Our electric company has been raising rates and the system is not fair. It is tiered so the more you use the more you pay in hopes to reduce usage. Fair enough. But in my house…

Grid defection is illegal in almost every municipality in the country. Companies like PG&E have a legislated monopoly and there's no other option for you.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#235

Post by Rebelgecko »

Arainach wrote: post #101
secabeen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this model is common in other utilities in the US (both by water and gas bills are structured this way), with a large meter fee and a consumption charge in line with the resource cost. Electricity could certainly be charged this way (and should), but it would be a huge change in how electricity is billed here, and the PUC would rather just make changes to just the net-metering system rather than open the can of…

I've seen this model, but it seems counterproductive to any environmental goals. For instance, my water infrastructure bill absolutely dwarfs my usage. I could take an hourlong shower every day and barely notice the increase in my bill. It seems like it's sending the wrong message.

The problem we've had where I live, is that when people do a good job reducing water/electricity consumption the utility companies have to either jack up their rates, do layoffs, or go broke because they aren't able to amortize their fixed costs as well.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#236

Post by Rebelgecko »

andi999 wrote: post #129
jrockway wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thing in the US. If you're ever walking around Manhattan and see steam coming out of a traffic cone, that's the side effect of district heating (groundwater hitting the very hot steam pipes and vaporizing).

Which should not happen, I mean do you not insulate the pipes?

Won't insulating the pipes reduce the heating effectiveness?

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#237

Post by rr808 »

paulmd wrote: post #130
rr808 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long transmission lines that need to be maintained, it's just generated (roughly) where it needs to be, saving you a lot of infrastructure. So it certainly seems "fair" to offset that infrastructure cost at least somewhat - you are providing value to the utilit…

> This is true if you're not connected to the grid. However if you use power on those cold winter cloudy days you need all that infrastructure still. Cold winter days don't represent peak consumption for the grid, there is no capacity being built specifically for cold winter days. In contrast there is capacity being built to offset everyone turning on the A/C during summer heatwaves, and solar has high power output d…

Possibly, I can't find an easy source of spot price over time.

https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.html is pretty good for total energy used and sources. In the Summer 3-5pm could be demand peak, but looks like the total energy used is high over a few hours, even after sun down.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#238

Post by bryceacc »

warble wrote: post #190
Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You comment makes sense if I was not hooked up to the grid. But I am. So, if my family conserves, that energy we save offsets someone else’s coal-generated energy and helps the environment. But I have zero incentive to so do because of layers of bad policies.

Yeah, in the current market you're correct, but we should be concentrating on creating an excess of cheap power (carbon free of course) rather than conserving.

why not both? they literally ALREADY HAVE the excess of cheap power AND can conserve. This is a push for action on policy and incentives

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#239

Post by throwaway329183 »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #181
nostromo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since I easily generate more electricity that I will ever use (see above for why policies drove us to an installation larger that necessary) my household has no incentive to conserve at all. ... so? You're generating energy from the sun. Feel free to use it all. We don't conserve energy for fun, we conserve it to protect the environment.

You comment makes sense if I was not hooked up to the grid. But I am. So, if my family conserves, that energy we save offsets someone else’s coal-generated energy and helps the environment. But I have zero incentive to so do because of layers of bad policies.

The big problem is timing, if your neighbour's solar panels were at peak output in the night and yours in the day, the credit system works.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#240

Post by bonzini »

snewman wrote: post #30
cletus wrote: post #16

The author here would do well to and understand and use terms like "fixed costs" and "variable costs". There are large fixed costs in the power grid and the author is complaining that the retail price of electricity doesn't reflect the variable costs, leading to distortions and perverse incentives. But this doesn't make prices "lies". > The current net metering system in California is pretty favorable to customers wi…

Author here. Thanks for the feedback! Agreed that net metering was deliberately designed as a subsidy, and that there was nothing hidden or underhanded about this, it was (and remains) all quite overt. And yet. The inspiration for this post was a discussion on my town's email list, where a lot of people were talking about net metering as if it were the natural and obvious way of doing things (and thus were very upset…

I have a question since I am not in the US: is net metering based on paying for the difference between consumed and produced energy (kWh), or between the prices of consumed and produced energy?
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