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Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

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Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#231

Post by Ourgon »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #200
Ourgon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, that's taking it a bit far given that I've yet to see any gamer who believes that e.g. taping plastic bags with gravel to their network cables [1] will lower their ping times (if it is not for weighing down a cruddy connector which only works when you press the damn thing down, that is). There does not seem to be a gamer-equivalent of $30000 speaker cables [2] (8 ft., add $1500 per additional ft.) or $10.000 powe…

Oh. Really? Why not compare the insane prices of thermal paste and compounds per volume/weight with the stuff that is used industrially? Not always, but often used for results which could be called statistic noise. Very diminishing returns. All for pushing reviews with many bar graphs over two dozen pages, and so much more page impressions. Like the rest of gamermedia, too. Woo!

Show me the diamond-dust cooling paste for $10000 per CPU and you'll be right - for a little while. Soon you'll find that paste in larger $50.000 thimble-sized containers to be rubbed under all equipment "to open up the sound stage". Raving reviews will come in, "as if the composer is standing next to you", "the lows were really clearing up, as if the sun broke through the clouds".

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#232

Post by topranks »

formerly_proven wrote: post #126
emteycz wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More devices used at once? If I am downloading 1 Gb/s from the internet, and meanwhile one of my housemates want to look at a movie from our NAS, the other one wants to backup 100 GB of photos to the same NAS - then 1 Gb/s home network is not enough.

I'm not arguing against faster networks, but scenarios like "one fast download makes video streams buffer" can be solved by using better routing algorithms (CAKE for example) instead of making the pipe so wide that it'll never be close to full. One of these is a configuration flag that you can flip today and costs nothing, the other means upgrading infrastructure.

What is CAKE??

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#233

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

Ourgon wrote: post #231
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. Really? Why not compare the insane prices of thermal paste and compounds per volume/weight with the stuff that is used industrially? Not always, but often used for results which could be called statistic noise. Very diminishing returns. All for pushing reviews with many bar graphs over two dozen pages, and so much more page impressions. Like the rest of gamermedia, too. Woo!

Show me the diamond-dust cooling paste for $10000 per CPU and you'll be right - for a little while. Soon you'll find that paste in larger $50.000 thimble-sized containers to be rubbed under all equipment "to open up the sound stage". Raving reviews will come in, "as if the composer is standing next to you", "the lows were really clearing up, as if the sun broke through the clouds".

Hm, k. BUT...everything counts in large amounts :)

So we have the very few audiophiles which totally ignore the thin copper layer on cheap PCBs, versus the whole market segment of twitchy gamers going for Bling, Bling, Bling without function on their RAM, coolers, vs. the equivalent stuff installed in laptops and servers which lacks that :-)

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#234

Post by walrus01 »

gjulianm wrote: post #57
walrus01 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10GbE and 100GbE on fiber is quite cheap and easy now - but 99% of consumers and people doing ordinary stuff have no capability or interest in doing fiber. You can terminate cat5e or cat6 with $25 in hand tools... I think what's new is the prevalence now of 2.5 and 5GBaseT ethernet chips that are cheap enough companies are starting to build them into any $125+ ATX motherboard. At short lengths even old crappy cat5e h…

Even 100GbE is hardly seen on company datacenters. Yes, it's cheaper than before, but still more expensive than 10G, and that's extra cost multiplied by all the devices that need to have the improved hardware to take advantage. Plus, most servers won't saturate a 10G link without tweaks on the setup. For 100G it's even worse, I think it will take a long time to see them on datacenters outside of core links or for com…

I can saturate a 10G link on a $600 desktop PC with a consumer grade NVME SSD... serious servers are capable of far more than that.

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#235

Post by iamthad »

topranks wrote: post #232
formerly_proven wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing against faster networks, but scenarios like "one fast download makes video streams buffer" can be solved by using better routing algorithms (CAKE for example) instead of making the pipe so wide that it'll never be close to full. One of these is a configuration flag that you can flip today and costs nothing, the other means upgrading infrastructure.

What is CAKE??

https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/Cake/

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#236

Post by Zandikar »

derekdahmer wrote: post #223
Zandikar wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been ranting about this for a while tbh. Network interfaces used to be one of the fastest interfaces on a computer. Now they're one of if not the slowest save for USB2 or bluetooth. 1GbE networking is one of the slowest interfaces on modern computers. - The slowest USB3 spec is 5Gbps. USB3 is a mess, but you can easily far exceed 1Gbps with the absolute worst of it. - The current fastest USB spec is USB4, and is…

Ethernet is by far the longest connection out of all of those, supporting up to 100 meters for 10G over copper and over 300 meters for fiber [1] which is pretty impressive. No other commodity interface comes close to that kind of range at that speed. Wifi 6 officially has a real world limit of 700mbps [2] and drops to half that if you're more than a few feet from the router. Passive USB 3 and thunderbolt cables have…

Yes. The connectors have different lengths, as some are internal and some are external interfaces, both of which are part of the chain in transferring data from storage device in one host to a storage device in another host. The point was to illustrate the bottleneck among all of the possible pieces in that chain, standard 1GbE ethernet is lagging behind. That's why I specifically referenced NVMe and 2/4Lane implementations when talking PCIe. In this context, run length is entirely irrelevant. It's more relevant to point out that you can network Ethernet connections, meanwhile USB, thunderbolt and Wifi are primarily client host connections.

> You can get a budget SFP+ Switch and 2 NICs for ~$300.

Yes, this is part of the problem. In 2016's we started to see mainstream adoption of 10G, which hopefully would lead to the more availabile, more affordable, consumer friendly ease of use twisted pair Cat6a and RJ45 10Gbase-T Switches. Instead, Enterprise had already largely moved on from 10G (largely supporting it as a legacy connector via SFP28 being backwards compatible with SFP+) and Mainstream/Prosumer manufacturers instead decided to regress from the 10Gbase-T deployments to 2.5GbE.

As a result we're not seeing a lot of development in the 10G space, and in many ways a regression towards 2.5GbE. Sure, if you don't mind the noise and know your way around a cli, there are plenty of surplus enterprise switches on the cheap. And I don't mind Optics/DACs. I run 10G at home (cat6a, Intel X550's, Arista 7050T-64, which used to be a few hundred bucks) and 25G/100G in the lab (CX4 LX's/CX6 VPIs connected to an Arista 7260CX-64). But it is unfamiliar to most consumers. Not a huge hurdle, but a strange ask considering 10Gbase-T with familiar twisted pair and rj45 aint new by any means. Mikrotik and UBQT both have some options in the space, but the cost of these newer switches certainly doesn't fall in the $300 budget, unless you only need like 2-4 10G ports on the switch and are fine with SFP+. And yes, >4PHY 10G SFP+ and/or 10Gbase-t switches exist, but you're not getting them and NICs w/ DACs (or especially fiber if you need a longer run akin to a standard Cat5 deployment) inside your $300 budget, and there's very few on the market that'll fit in your budget even if you stretch it to $500.

TL;DR: Yes, 10G is technically available, but it's a strangely esoteric niche that exists after the mainstream decided to regress from 10GbE towards 2.5GbE.

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#237

Post by loosescrews »

omgtehlion wrote: post #172
loosescrews wrote: post #5

I have had a lot of trouble with the Marvell AQtion controllers under Linux. They are supposed to work and are plug and play on modern kernels, but I was never able to resolve a bug where the controller stopped working after a few hours. The only resolution I found was rebooting, which made the controller not very useful. The Intel 10GbE controllers are more expensive, but much better in my experience. For anyone loo…

If you do not need a cable, there are m.2 to 4x PCIe (open slot, so you can insert 8x and 16x cards) for $5.

I wasn't able to find any of those that support PCI-e 3.0. Both the Marvel and Intel controllers discussed in this thread are PCI-e 3.0.

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#238

Post by pdimitar »

jagrsw wrote: post #183
aix1 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super interesting re Mikrotik adapters. Those (S+RJ10) are exactly what I run, so very relevant, thank you!

I think it's a mixed bag of cats, the support for 2.5/5/10G - somebody made an useful table for that: https://www.servethehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/STH-... The whole article: https://www.servethehome.com/sfp-to-10gbase-t-adapter-module...

Super useful, thanks for taking the time to post it.

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#239

Post by walrus01 »

zrail wrote: post #103
thedougd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing 2.5 and 5 popping up all over the place. My WiFi App has 2.5 with POE. The aggregate bandwidth of the AP exceeds 1G. Spectrum cable modems have 2.5G ports now and AT&T Fiber is shipping their garbage gateway with a 5G port. Unfortunately, I'm finding switches with 2.5 to still be overpriced.

I wanted to upgrade portions of my home network to multigig because Comcast is giving us 1.4Gbps and I wanted to use it. At least for me, 2.5 switches were way to expensive so I ended up with used Intel 10G cards connected with DACs to a cheap 5 port Mikrotik 10G switch. One 10GBase-T RJ45 SFP+ hooks into the modem.

"1.4Gbps" and probably 16Mbps upstream on DOCSIS3.1 channel bonding

I'd rather have a 100Mbps home DIA circuit that was symmetric and seriously reliable, than the typical Comcast circuit.

Re: Add 10 GbE to your system with an M.2 2280 module

#240

Post by jiggawatts »

rglullis wrote: post #127
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You should be able to work from a stable coffee shop WiFi connection." I think there are different philosophies, just like 'no comments allowed in code', this is a matter of judgement. I saw 5 different corporations setup centralised workflow, and usually you end up with a massive cloud bill, incorrectly configured admin rights, under-resourced VDI, and a ticketing system that takes a week to resolve the smallest is…

Then again, if it is public (or not-sensitive) data, why make it part of your infra? If you are working with ML and have public datasets, just use the original source. Make a public mirror if you want to collaborate. Make it accessible via BitTorrent. You can bet that the amount of savings you will get from AWS will be enough to give each dev a NAS with a few tens of TB, which then they can even then use to host/mirr…

My specific example was a private data set hosted on-premises (satellite imagery).

The analysts were pulling down a ~0.1% sample to develop the ML algorithms locally, and then deploying the final thing in the cloud to run through the whole petabyte.

Local development has its advantages, such as high flexibility and very fast cycle times. It's fantastically expensive to outperform a modern PCI 4.0 NVMe drive in the cloud. Locally it's a $200 part.

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