More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#231

Post by kd913 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #32

disambiguation wrote: post #27

Less than 3k kids under the age of 24 have died from covid since the start of the pandemic [0] yet they have some how wound up with the harshest restrictions. These kids will never get these years back. What a disgrace. [0] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex...

Like that number isn't horrendous in and of itself, but let's not forget that many young adults that have had Covid likely gave it to someone vulnerable as well. It's not just who dies directly from Covid. It's also the spread of it to vulnerable populations. It boggles the mind that this still has to be repeated. How many 22 year olds coming back from spring break will kill one of their parents or grandparents?

I can understand your opinion to a perspective, but I feel the position has changed dramatically. At this point, vaccines are available.

There is almost no feasibility in eliminating COVID at this point in time. It will mutate, and hence we need to be talking about the possibility of 'living with the disease'.

As such, how much damage are we doing damaging the education, and critical periods for these youths?

If the problem is protecting the parents and grandparents, why not do that, and isolate them rather than permanently damaging the youth.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#232

Post by cgearhart » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #143

cgearhart wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The University of California is the world’s leading public research university.” [1] So $20k/yr seems like a steal. Meanwhile, if you’re price sensitive then you can go to one of the 26 Cal State campuses for ~$8k/yr (Cal Poly SLO is an outlier at $10k). [2] If you’re really looking to keep costs down, head to community college for two years to finish a Cal State transferable AA, then have guaranteed admission to a…

In my experience, "Research universities" are a joke for undergrad students. All it means for most of them is that their classes will be taught by graduate students because the "professors" are too busy doing research to be bothered with such trivial work. You need to be pretty lucky in your final years or actually going for masters or PHD to really be exposed to the research side of things. It's a steal alright, but…

I guess my point was that the price of a school system that touts itself as a world-leading research university may not be the best baseline for the cost of college—even if it’s a public university system. The Cal State system has always been the “affordable” public option for college in California.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#233

Post by DebtDeflation » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #130

bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

It's not just loans, it's COVID. If I were college-age and I were planning on going to college I would certainly do one of two things. I would postpone college until the COVID issues died down -or- I would use the fewer applicants to get into a more prestigious school banking on a better 3 year experience (out of 4) starting in the fall of 2022 and more impressive degree going forward. Either way, I can imagine admit…

Tend to agree. I did my Masters degree (pre-Covid) as part of a predominantly online program at a large university. It worked out well, but I cannot even begin to imagine doing an undergraduate program remotely and missing out on the campus experience. There's much more to "going off to college" than taking classes, and I fully understand why 18-22 year olds would not want to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to miss the bulk of that experience.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#234

Post by standardUser » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #218

standardUser wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public schools average about $10k per year for in-state students. That's a far cry from the $25k-$50k per year people tend to quote when arguing against the cost of college. How important that difference is depends on which state a student lives in. In California there are literally dozens of options including several prestigious ones, whereas many states only have a couple of middling schools to choose from, and out…

You're thinking of 20 years ago. Most state schools are easily $20k for in state students once you add in the room and board. Then they try to get $50k from the out-of-staters. Top flight state schools like Michigan, Cal Berkeley and Cornell start at $75k+ for out-of-staters. Of course financial aid does enter the picture for many students.

No, I am not thinking of twenty years ago, I accurately stated the cost of tuition today, which generally does not include renting a place to live, on-campus or otherwise, or a meal plan.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#235

Post by simplestats » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #181

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

Public schools average about $10k per year for in-state students. That's a far cry from the $25k-$50k per year people tend to quote when arguing against the cost of college. How important that difference is depends on which state a student lives in. In California there are literally dozens of options including several prestigious ones, whereas many states only have a couple of middling schools to choose from, and out…

Depends how you look at it. If you're from a poor state, you can get into a solid flagship school (including medical school) even if you could never get in to places with single-digit admissions (like the top tier ofCalifornia schools). Whereas people who would be able get into the high-ranked California Universities can probably get full scholarships to solid out-of-state private schools too.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#236

Post by paulpauper » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

The average debt for recent college grads is around $30-40k, quarter-million figures are outliers . Doctors may accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, but they easily make up for it in income.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#237

Post by yoyohello13 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

They are not that different. I graduated from a no name school a few years ago and am doing fine.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#238

Post by marcellus23 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

long_time_gone wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communicating with eachother, knowledge of business, and understanding language seem like things we would want more of in society. Not sure why they would be demonized. Is the goal of higher-education to promote learning and build a well-rounded citizenry or to create worker drones?

> Not sure why they would be demonized Because they're in large part neither functional nor artistic. Both force one to think in novel ways. The certification-for-its-own-sake majors do not. There are reams of low-grade degrees in which the majority of teaching is in memorization, not mastering new ways to think. That doesn't advance society, particularly when it burdens young people with debt.

> Both force one to think in novel ways. The certification-for-its-own-sake majors do not.

What exactly do you think an English major is like? Humanities majors absolutely force you to think in new ways, and I'd argue much more so than engineering or CS majors.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#239

Post by lordnacho » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #217

taylodl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Things are just going back to the way they used to be: higher education is for the elites. Once upon a time we understood that higher education was important for all and having a well-educated public was good for the Republic. Now that view no longer holds - the politicians have learned that their flim-flam doesn't work as well on a well-educated public and so they've been making cuts to higher education for the…

That's an interesting take, but I disagree. The reason colleges cost so much is that they've expanded their administration, facilities, and sports programs to soak up all of the available loan money. I went to a state school that focused on STEM. The acceptance rate was low, class sizes were small, and the tuitions were reasonable. The buildings dated from the 60's. We didn't have extensive athletic programs, and our…

I wonder if there's a market for schools that specifically don't have a sports program. I suspect the atmosphere at such a place would be attractive to a large minority of prospective students.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#240

Post by Shared404 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

ejb999 wrote: post #158

sarchertech wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>horrendously predatory loans backed by the government What's predatory about public loans. They all qualify for income based repayment, which means you'll never pay more than 10% of your disposable income (any income over 1.5x the federal poverty level). If you make below that amount, you'll never be required to pay back anything. And they are cancelled after 20 years. Theoretically you'd owe tax on cancelled debt,…

>>What's predatory about public loans. To some folks, having to pay off their loan, is considered predatory.

The predatory part is the pushing kids who don't understand finances into taking massive loans with high interest rates.

I've passed on a traditional uni for this because I want to avoid debt, and still get "why don't you go to uni?"'d every so often by family and acquaintance's.

And if the argument is "well, if you don't make enough to pay it, just don't!", as GP appears to be, I don't like spending other people's tax dollars dishonestly - especially not on textbook companies [0] and an expanding administrative staff.

[0] Which bribe and cut-throat their way into forcing $100+ payments per student per class per semester. Pirating or buying second hand doesn't even work half the time now - you need the "online access", aka DRM.