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Welcome to Waifu Labs v2: How Do AIs Create?

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Re: Welcome to Waifu Labs v2: How Do AIs Create?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What makes you think human creativity is anything more than statistical modelling? For example, humans don't need to see millions of examples of waifu before they can draw their own. Also, humans can draw in different styles, including novel styles that look nothing like styles they have seen before. Statistical models like GANs can only draw in styles similar to the ones in their training sets. Statistical modell…

> For example, humans don't need to see millions of examples of waifu before they can draw their own. Humans have the advantage of being trained for years on a far larger and more generalized dataset before they're asked to draw anything. > Statistical models like GANs can only draw in styles similar to the ones in their training sets. The intermediate states in the article's example seemed to contain a number of nov…

>> Humans have the advantage of being trained for years on a far larger and more generalized dataset before they're asked to draw anything.

That's a big assumption wrapped up in an over-wrought analogy. Humans don't "train" in the sene that statistical models, or neural nets, are trained. We don't have any clear supervision for example, no ground truth. And we don't need examples of exactly the things we learn, to learn them. For instance, nobody ever saw an example of a manga character before the first manga character was drawn. And yet, someone drew it.

>> These AI models are generating images which never existed before, and which were not in their datasets. How is that not novelty?

How I like to think of it, which is a bit of a fudge, is that neural nets learn to convert each of their input images into a connect-the-dot puzzle (the "dots" are the data points in a very high-dimensional space that encompasses the pixels of all their training images; like I say, it's a bit of a fudge). Every new training image gets its own connect-the-dot puzzle superimposed on those of all previous images. Once training is done, you can ask the trained model to generate new images and it basically puts its pen down on a dot, and starts drawing a line. What dot comes next depends on timey-wimey model-probabilities. Obviously, in that way, it can't draw a line to a dot outside the big network of superimposed connect-and-dot puzzles it has put together. Such outside-context dots don't exist for the model, in any real sense. So it can only create images that exist within that puzzle.

In truth, the puzzle, i.e. the trained model, is a dense region of cartesian space (a manifold). What comes out of the model must already exist in that manifold, so it must be a variation, or combination, of the training images used to construct the manifold.

Which means, it can't innovate. So for instance, you can't expect to train it on images of manga characters and find that it now draws you in the style of Michelangelo. That's what I mean. Of course you'll see images that are not exactly the images you put in, but you won't see images that are very different from the ones you put in. It is, in a very concrete sense, a very limited ability to generate new images.

Re: Welcome to Waifu Labs v2: How Do AIs Create?

#232
post #2

Hey HN, one of the team members here! I hope you all enjoy playing with the new and improved generator! We've been hard at work improving the model quality since the last time the site was posted[1] As both a professional fantasy illustrator & software engineer, I find the concept of AI creativity so fascinating. On one hand, I know that mathematically AI only can hallucinate images that fit within the distribution o…

Who would someone speak with about licensing things made using waifu? My email contact is in my profile...

Re: Welcome to Waifu Labs v2: How Do AIs Create?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, humans don't need to see millions of examples of waifu before they can draw their own. Humans have the advantage of being trained for years on a far larger and more generalized dataset before they're asked to draw anything. > Statistical models like GANs can only draw in styles similar to the ones in their training sets. The intermediate states in the article's example seemed to contain a number of nov…

>> Humans have the advantage of being trained for years on a far larger and more generalized dataset before they're asked to draw anything. That's a big assumption wrapped up in an over-wrought analogy. Humans don't "train" in the sene that statistical models, or neural nets, are trained. We don't have any clear supervision for example, no ground truth. And we don't need examples of exactly the things we learn, to le…

> Humans don't "train" in the sene that statistical models, or neural nets, are trained. We don't have any clear supervision for example, no ground truth.

GANs are a form of unsupervised learning. They don't have "ground truth" either, just lots of existing images which they learn to imitate and to distinguish from other kinds of images not present in the training set. Similarly, humans learn to distinguish natural images from unnatural ones starting from birth, and use that learned feedback to filter the images produced by our imaginations: a natural example of a GAN. Our input is less… focused, and includes non-visual elements, and there are of course other aspects to general intelligence besides visual processing and imagination, but in this area at least we operate on the same basic principles.

> So for instance, you can't expect to train it on images of manga characters and find that it now draws you in the style of Michelangelo. That's what I mean.

Are we talking about GANs here, or humans? A human trained exclusively on manga wouldn't suddenly develop the ability to imitate Michelangelo either. On the other hand, a GAN trained on manga may sometimes produce images which are not recognizably part of the manga style—which could be seen as an entirely new style. (It would help the process along if you included non-manga images in the training set, as a human would have access to those as well. Then different styles of the same scene just become one more dimension in your "manifold" of all possible images.)

Inventing and learning to draw in a new style isn't something that comes spontaneously to humans. It takes a lot of practice both learning what makes the style distinctive and learning to create art in the new style. A GAN has most of the basic elements required to do the same, but we generally don't use it that way. An interesting experiment might be to permute the discriminator to favor specific elements which were not common in the training set and then train the generator to satisfy the altered discriminator.

> Which means, it can't innovate.

What exactly do you mean by "innovate"? To me the word implies intent, which is clearly out of scope for a mere GAN. Intentional behavior would put it in the domain of an artificial general intelligence or AGI. However, generating images which aren't in the training set is just a matter of choosing a point on the "manifold" which doesn't correspond to any of the input images. Though expecting the GAN to spontaneously invent a distinctive and consistent new style which appeals to humans, without being one itself or otherwise being trained in what humans might find appealing, is a bit much IMHO.

The biggest difference remains the fact that this GAN only has manga for its input, which limits its ability to produce anything outside that context. Its whole life is manga and nothing else. Humans have the same issue with creating things completely unrelated to any prior experience, but they have a much larger and more varied pool of experiences to draw from. (And even then humans can easily get stuck in one particular style and find it difficult to change.)

Re: Welcome to Waifu Labs v2: How Do AIs Create?

#234
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say pedophile, they say legal age of consent. I think it's different set of mores. Although it's complicated the age of consent depends on prefecture, age and circumstances and it's around 13 year old. And anime throw wrenches by having people's apparent age being different than their actual age. Take for example ReZero, where female heroine is 118 year old elf that looks like an average 17-18 year old, but has t…

Let me summarize. For you, child rape being bad is merely an arbitrary social custom ('I think it's different set of mores.'), and you see no difference ('just as degenerate') between two 30 year old adults doing BDSM -- and child rape. Finally, for you it's just the 'story'; you find it normal to watch a 6 year-old being raped as long as the story is 'oh, she's actually 107 and from a different planet', and you thin…

I mean I agree child sex is bad. I also agree incest is bad.

But there were societies that promoted both and still kept existing. Just because I have a set of social norms, caused by my upbringing, doesn't mean I get to judge people that had different upbringing.

---

Let me clear some things. Pedo content 99 times out of 100, isn't literal child rape. Hell, there isn't any sex at all (actual scenes of sex get you 18+ rating so anime and manga would avoid actual depictions since you narrow the audience). If there are any such scenes where an older person has involuntary sex with a younger person, they are depicted as vile and heinous acts.

It's usually just minors* having sex with other minors with both parties agreeing. It's usually not depicted as actual non-consensual sexual acts.

So where is the child rape? Well, in the details, i.e. consent. See my comment about apparent age. It gets into squicky territory quickly.

* - One of the minors or both might have different apparent age than actual age.

Re: Welcome to Waifu Labs v2: How Do AIs Create?

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Humans have the advantage of being trained for years on a far larger and more generalized dataset before they're asked to draw anything. That's a big assumption wrapped up in an over-wrought analogy. Humans don't "train" in the sene that statistical models, or neural nets, are trained. We don't have any clear supervision for example, no ground truth. And we don't need examples of exactly the things we learn, to le…

> Humans don't "train" in the sene that statistical models, or neural nets, are trained. We don't have any clear supervision for example, no ground truth. GANs are a form of unsupervised learning. They don't have "ground truth" either, just lots of existing images which they learn to imitate and to distinguish from other kinds of images not present in the training set. Similarly, humans learn to distinguish natural i…

I'm sorry for the confusion I caused with my inexact terminology. What I mean about "ground truth" in the context of this conversation is the images that GANs are trained to reproduce. Supervision doesn't need to come in the form of labels. GANs are weakly supervised but they are given examples of exactly what they need to model. They are trained to reproduce those examples and like you say, they can't be expected to learn to do anything else.

This is a general rule about neural networks, as we have them today: they learn to reproduce their training set. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Humans, now, don't need to see examples of a thing before we can make one. If that were the case, we would never have created all the technology we have, of which there was no previous example. For instance, at some point in our history someone figured out how to carve a hand axe for the first time, ever. That person didn't have any examples to go by. There were no such objects in nature, before that time. Certainly that person had some idea of concepts such as "sharp" or "pointy" or who knows what else, but they had no blueprint for a hand axe. This is what I mean by "innovation".

"Inventing and learning to draw in a new style" is absolutely something that comes spontaneously to humans! That's the entire history of human art: people inventing new ways to express themselves through various art forms. Art would be way too dull if nobody could come up with new things.

But I certainly agree that it's unfair to expect the same kind of innovation from GANs or from other neural nets. However, I think that's the case because neural nets are nothing like humans. But if I understand correctly, you're claiming that how the human mind works and how neural networks, work, is very similar, so I'm confused a bit because in that case you should expect them to have the same abilities as humans do. Sorry if I misunderstand you, but could you clarify? If human creativity is statistical modelling and GANs do statistical modelling (they kiiind of do) then we should expect GANs to be able to do everything that humans can do, no?

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