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Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

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Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#231

Post by jedberg »

SirHound wrote: post #12

Apple is clearly an incredibly successful company but to take an example why would an energetic young developer ever choose to work on Apple Music over Spotify? I say this as an Apple Music subscriber but one is a company that is existentially all in and the other that sees a revenue stream. This is evident in the quality of the respective products. If you’re not in the AR/car divisions then what is the point.

Because the installed based is ridiculously huge, and you want discounts on Apple stuff? Also, it's a good way to get your foot in the door and maybe switch to something more unique to Apple later on.

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#232

Post by sangnoir »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #197
masterof0 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have 10 jobs in 10 years on your resume, every hiring manager who sees it will instantly recognize that you're a job hopper who isn't likely to stay longer than a year. HMs in small companies, maybe, in big companies , they dont care, they are paid to bring talent in, they don't get penalized if an employee quits after a year. > This provides the chance to accomplish bigger things, build .... I have seen you…

> HMs in small companies, maybe, in big companies , they dont care, they are paid to bring talent in, they don't get penalized if an employee quits after a year. Hiring managers care because it's a big hit to your deliverables every time someone leaves and you have hire someone else, bring them up to speed, and try to get them back up to the same level of knowledge as the person who left. If you have a team of 6 and…

> It's actually becoming fairly common for companies to give back-weighted compensation or hiring bonuses that must be paid back if the employee leaves before two years, especially for job hoppers.

You mean like Amazon with it's weird vesting schedule? Those companies also struggle to attract talent, especially combined with obscure PIPs which can push employees out before a single RSU has vested. Those companies are not going to do well in this hiring market.

It should be easy to fire bad employees, and on the flip side, it should be easy to fire bad employers too.

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#233

Post by mgh2 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94
wronglebowski wrote: post #2

> "Most engineers received stock worth $80,000 to $120,000, with the bonuses provided as restricted stock units that are set to vest over the course of four years provided the employees stay with Apple and do not take jobs at other companies." Is that really a significant amount enough to ward off being poached? 120k over 4 years is 30k a year if linear. I would think at the pay scales being discussed they would get…

A bonus is a bonus. Presumably this is on top of whatever they had before, so an extra $20K to $45K per year is icing on the cake. In reality, most engineers aren't bouncing around from company to company every year trying to squeeze every last dollar out of their compensation. The strategy works well for a few iterations in early careers, but eventually it starts becoming counter-productive. If you have 10 jobs in 1…

"Job hopper" bias: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lizryan_the-dumbest-part-of-e...

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#234

Post by alienthrowaway »

hamburglar wrote: post #196
masterof0 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have 10 jobs in 10 years on your resume, every hiring manager who sees it will instantly recognize that you're a job hopper who isn't likely to stay longer than a year. HMs in small companies, maybe, in big companies , they dont care, they are paid to bring talent in, they don't get penalized if an employee quits after a year. > This provides the chance to accomplish bigger things, build .... I have seen you…

> most smart people hiring understand that you switch jobs seeking a higher TC, in the same way businesses change course/pivot seeking higher profits > The "stay forever and maybe one day you will get promoted", is a thing of the past. You make more money switching jobs than waiting for a promotion These statements are FAR from universally true. My TC has more than doubled in the last 5 years without a job hop. In th…

My TC went up 5x in the last 5 years. I accomplished this by job hoping twice, more than doubling with every move. That could not happen if I stuck around the old job, even after multiple promotions. My only regret is I should have job-hopped earlier, I missed out on 5-digits of income.

There is no one true way, yes, but one gives the employee more control over their destiny.

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#235

Post by alienthrowaway »

amzn-throw wrote: post #225
masterof0 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This have been so far my experience. The L5 on my team, was L5(L4 at Google scale) at Amazon, couldn't get the promo, then interviewed with us , and got L5 with TC at the top of the bracket. I know is just one data point, but I have heard of similar stories.

That could also be based on a difference of expectations in skills for a job family at Google vs. Amazon. An Amazon Sr. SDE (L6) is expected to have strong leadership skills, which means interpersonal tech lead abilities - including mentorship of others, communication with stakeholders, etc. This person may not have had the abilities or interest in having this so they went to Google which seems to focus exclusively o…

How many interview stages did you go through at Google?

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#236

Post by a4isms »

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #198
a4isms wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interview 50% or more of the senior engineers we (A YC-backed company that is post-IPO and still growing rapidly) hire. I assure you that our interview process for engineers at this level is weighted towards significant involvement in projects. We consider it unacceptable if all the projects a candidate wants to talk about "began before I was hired, and shipped after I left." And that's what you get if you are an a…

> major multi-year project I'm not sure what company you're at but there is certainly not a multi-year project in any I've worked at. There are long term _product_ roadmaps but in order to stay agile you never commit to something as big as a multi-year project. There are only individual features that get committed to. Even in core infra (heavily technical) where needs and solutions are known committed work goes out a…

If a product takes 2-4 iterations to reach maturity, and a candidate is only involved in one of those iterations, they haven't participated in the complete multi-year product cycle from skateboard to scooter to bicycle to motorcycle to car, to borrow a popular metaphor.

If a roadmap goes out 3-5 years and a candidate only executes on one or two of those years, the candidate hasn't gained experience with which parts of a roadmap stay committed and which ones change in response to new information/priorities.

Most of this does not apply to a hot startup where the founders are still coding every day, but those aren't the only senior engineering opportunities.

My meta-experience is that the kinds of things I'm talking about tend to be most highly prized by companies that have been around longer than a startup, and now have problems to solve technically and organizationally that can most effectively be solved by people who have stayed in one company longer than one-two years.

Such companies aren't usually as exciting as pre-IPO startups, so absolutely no side-eye from me if anyone reading this is thinking "You can take that job and shove it, I'm busy inventing the future on a two-pizza team in a six-pizza startup."

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#237

Post by howmayiannoyyou »

xxpor wrote: post #63
howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #35

In 1979 an inflation-led recession rocked the US economy, abated for about 3 quarters, then returned for another 4 quarters starting in 1981. I expect the same to happen in the months ahead, and in that context Apple's offer is attractive. For anyone who hasn't lived through a deep recession, or an inflation-led recession (stagflation)... it really sucked.

Those recessions weren't inflation led, they were intentionally caused by the fed to break inflation.

I don't know what you think inflation-led means, but that's exactly my point. But for inflation, no Fed rate intervention, no liquidity scarcity, no recession... inflation started/led to it. You are one pedantic person. You must be a lot of fun at parties.

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#238

Post by a4isms »

a4isms wrote: post #179
a4isms wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interview 50% or more of the senior engineers we (A YC-backed company that is post-IPO and still growing rapidly) hire. I assure you that our interview process for engineers at this level is weighted towards significant involvement in projects. We consider it unacceptable if all the projects a candidate wants to talk about "began before I was hired, and shipped after I left." And that's what you get if you are an a…

p.s. There's more than just shepherding long projects, that's just the easiest thing to explain. But to add some colour, other things a senior engineer is expected to demonstrate are: 1. Experience with the consequences of their choices. Ok, you were able to get a job at company X, get up to speed, and lead a major cross-team or cross-group initiative within two years. What happened after that? Did it create the desi…

p.p.s. I want to be very clear that there's nothing magic in my mind about being a "senior" engineer. You don't have to be a senior engineer to make more money in this industry: You can be a serial intermediate!

Consider someone who works as a team lead at a startup for two years, it goes IPO, they cash out. Do they stay, learn about working in a bigger company and become the kind of person I'm describing above?

Yes, if that interests them. But that isn't the only road. They could also go join another startup. Lather, rinse, repeat. With luck and skill, they could keep honing their skills as a leader of teams in a fast-paced early-stage environment, without ever becoming the kind of person a 500-person engineering group is trying to hire as a Principal Engineer.

Nothing wrong with that, it's the engineering equivalent of a serial entrepreneur. Some founders want to run their company for their entire career, like Ken Olsen, Bill Gates, or Jeff Bezos. Others are happy to sell out and start all over again.

Do what makes you happy. I'm just explaining what one company is looking for at a senior level.

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#239

Post by ryandrake »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94
wronglebowski wrote: post #2

> "Most engineers received stock worth $80,000 to $120,000, with the bonuses provided as restricted stock units that are set to vest over the course of four years provided the employees stay with Apple and do not take jobs at other companies." Is that really a significant amount enough to ward off being poached? 120k over 4 years is 30k a year if linear. I would think at the pay scales being discussed they would get…

A bonus is a bonus. Presumably this is on top of whatever they had before, so an extra $20K to $45K per year is icing on the cake. In reality, most engineers aren't bouncing around from company to company every year trying to squeeze every last dollar out of their compensation. The strategy works well for a few iterations in early careers, but eventually it starts becoming counter-productive. If you have 10 jobs in 1…

> In reality, most engineers aren't bouncing around from company to company every year trying to squeeze every last dollar out of their compensation. The strategy works well for a few iterations in early careers, but eventually it starts becoming counter-productive.

This is a good point. Most people singing the praises of job hopping are early ( staff eng or manager, staff eng -> principle eng, principle eng -> executive) which is not always easy.

The youngsters among us will eventually understand, after you've reached that plateau and your next job is going to be +1% at best, all the work it takes to reskill, grind leetcode, interview prep, interview, negotiate, move your family, change your mailing address, etc. kind of stops being worth it.

Re: Some Apple engineers rewarded up to $180k in stock bonuses as incentive to stay

#240

Post by gxespino »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #197
masterof0 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have 10 jobs in 10 years on your resume, every hiring manager who sees it will instantly recognize that you're a job hopper who isn't likely to stay longer than a year. HMs in small companies, maybe, in big companies , they dont care, they are paid to bring talent in, they don't get penalized if an employee quits after a year. > This provides the chance to accomplish bigger things, build .... I have seen you…

> HMs in small companies, maybe, in big companies , they dont care, they are paid to bring talent in, they don't get penalized if an employee quits after a year. Hiring managers care because it's a big hit to your deliverables every time someone leaves and you have hire someone else, bring them up to speed, and try to get them back up to the same level of knowledge as the person who left. If you have a team of 6 and…

If you have a team of 6 and everyone leaves every 12 months, it doesn't matter what candidate you bring on, job hopper or not, your organization is the one at fault.
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