Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation • Hacker News Board

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#231

Post by Aunche » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #90

paxys wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard internet discourse. Numbers are bad - "See everyone, things are fucked. I told you so." (which is what this post is about) Numbers are good - "Meh, I never trust the underlying data anyways. It is all meaningless."

I was being a snark, but I would still genuinely like to hear why someone would feel confident in the method.

It's the consumer price index. Rent is consumed. A house is an asset. You can sell it at a profit. Your intuition is correct in that it's not quite that simple in the real world. Housing is already the least liquid asset, and people get an emotional attachment to their homes, so they often die without cashing out on their homes. As a result, they feel poorer than they should as suggested by CPI.

IMO, the problem isn't the CPI. The market is just fundamentally distorted because the government pumps money into real estate into subsidized loans.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#232

Post by bsjks » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #210

Just a few months ago you would be flagged on HN for mentioning inflation. Look up any threads on economy from March 2021 for example. I want to know why. Why was the HN diaspora not allowing dissent with the mainstream narrative? Mentioning inflation here was so harshly ridiculed, I was surprised the massive U-turn from the tech community. I saw the entire media changing the tune. That means no one here is thinking…

The only opinions allowed to be had in hn are mainstream opinions and then those that are to the left of the mainstream.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#233

Post by imafish » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #198

lettergram wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, as a manager I encourage my team to apply and bring me other offers. I will even help with some minor prep. If they come to me with a better offer I’ll take it to my leadership and show their worth. If they fail, they know I cared enough to assist and trust me and are happy for their job. If they succeed they get a raise, but are more likely to stay and work harder knowing they can trust me and can colla…

If someone on my team comes to me asking for help getting a new role, either in my team or externally, I've always been very happy to do what I can for them.

But if someone on your team is happy in their role but underpaid 10% compared to the market, you will not?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#234

Post by laurent92 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

adflux wrote: post #119

laurent92 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principle of inflation is to dynamically adjust: - Available products in the world, - Number of people who can afford them. With Covid, we didn’t produce for 2 months in 2020 and we’ve produced slower in 2021. And all governments distributed free money. So, in theory there is clearly not enough goods produced for everyone in the world. Prices should rise dynamically until 10% fewer people can afford them than in…

Global consumption expressed in...? That currency which inflated

Expressed in goods. The role of an economic system, communist capitalist or any other, is to organize the delivery of goods. We’ve produced 10% fewer goods in 2020, someone must deprive themselves.

The inflated currency doesn’t matter, who’s the people who are depriving themselves while I’ve made a fortune and bought a house? I see we’re a whole lot who won the jackpot with Covid, who are the losers and why aren’t they already revolting?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#235

Post by chii » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #48

paxys wrote: post #19

Looking at the chart it's pretty obvious that wages aren't pegged to inflation in any way. You will always be paid based on the conditions of the labor market, not the price of an arbitrary basket of goods. Heck you can see that wage growth outpaced inflation in ~10 of the last 12 years. Isn't that a good thing?

That's a good thing. But it would have been better if wages kept up with productivity growth too, which they haven't.

the productivity growth required capital investments (either as upfront research/development, or as capital expenditure on plant and equipment). The owners of this capital require a return on such an investment, and thus, they get first dibs on the excess productivity (aka, profit).

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#236

Post by random_upvoter » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #100

This will be unpopular... If you want to make good pay, you have to make it happen. You have to change jobs occasionally (every 2 years). You have to suck up a bit to managers. You have to be at least average at your job. You have to manage your CV. And you have to negotiate. I'm not saying this is right or fair or nice. I'm just saying the vast majority of people I've worked with don't do any of those things (except…

Well you bought into the myth of competition and you have done well in your particular segment of the economy, good for you. But most jobs in this world are just not challenging. Most of the meaningful work in this world is not particularly challenging or competitive, it just needs to be done. Rooms need to be vacuumed, children need to be washed and trucks need to be driven from A to B. So your message to the people who scrub your toilet is "If you don't want to a lower salary than last year, just scrub my toilet harder and faster than the other guy"? Maybe that other guy is a bit older and slower. Have you considered that 10 or 20 years from now you will also be older and slower? Most people are not interested in "gaming" the system, nor are they particularly good at it. Most people are content with comfortable lives in which they play some meaningful/useful role.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#237

Post by detaro » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

virgilp wrote: post #228

manmal wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people in the US call left elites, is being called slightly rightwing in the EU. When I hear comments like „state-funded housing is socialism“ I have to chuckle. That’s just how you make sure people won’t starve if they don’t resort to shady business. Bernie‘s ideas would be called leftist here, but not extremely so.

It's hard to debunk this since if we declare all democrat party to be "left", then yes, some democrats will be slightly rightwing. But there are definitely some "left" currents that started in US universities and are spreading to the rest of the world. The kind of stuff that Jordan Peterson is preaching against is definitely not considered "slightly rightwing" in the EU.

That stuff also has nothing to do with how "left-right" is classified in Europe.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#238

Post by cblconfederate » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

NoPicklez wrote: post #199

LatteLazy wrote: post #100

This will be unpopular... If you want to make good pay, you have to make it happen. You have to change jobs occasionally (every 2 years). You have to suck up a bit to managers. You have to be at least average at your job. You have to manage your CV. And you have to negotiate. I'm not saying this is right or fair or nice. I'm just saying the vast majority of people I've worked with don't do any of those things (except…

"You have to change jobs occasionally" That is complete garbage. What you mean is that you have to change jobs if you don't see the potential for growth and growth opportunities.

No you just really have to switch jobs every 2 years

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employee...

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#239

Post by enimodas » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

futharkshill wrote: post #209

zipiridu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch Ray Dalio's videos on the long term debt cycle and how the economy works in general. Another interesting topic is what is called the "fourth turning" which sort of says that major changes happen around once a human lifecycle. We are going to have some major economic changes in the next decade, but no one knows how that will look. I think it's 50/50 whether it's violent or not.

You are being overly dramatic. A hundred years ago, workers were treated so bad and had such bad living conditions it makes you sick just to hear about it. THAT lead to some violent revolutions in some countries, most of them young, undemocratic, or unstable. Some of them migrated 2,000 km from their home. People have food, shelter, entertainment.

Plenty of stories on /r/antiwork make me feel sick too

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#240

Post by lrem » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:08 AM UTC

adflux wrote: post #119

laurent92 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principle of inflation is to dynamically adjust: - Available products in the world, - Number of people who can afford them. With Covid, we didn’t produce for 2 months in 2020 and we’ve produced slower in 2021. And all governments distributed free money. So, in theory there is clearly not enough goods produced for everyone in the world. Prices should rise dynamically until 10% fewer people can afford them than in…

Global consumption expressed in...? That currency which inflated

No. Ignore currencies, which are just our best approximation of a reasonable measure of wealth. The problem is that over the course of pandemic the world has produced less actual wealth. Unless we somehow reduced waste, we should now be able _on average_ to afford less.