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The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

mcc.gse.harvard.edu

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Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#231

Post by BeaverFirewall6 »

jollybean wrote: post #230
panaffa wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to read the newspaper everyday and cared about societal issues. After this pandemic & the response to it, I've lost all faith and excitement about society. My loneliness will only get worse

The 'newspaper' is not a source of social issues, it's all political, particularly in the US. Your community is. Also, the global response to the pandemic has been the most amazing thing in human history: we have never been so rapid and coordinated. Never have international institutions worked together across the globe in concert like this. We had a vaccine crated before the disease even hit the West, we tested and m…

You bring up some good points, I agree the vaccine was a miracle and I hope we can find many more cures to all the diseases out there. However, I personally am more gloomy about how countries are witholding information about the origins of the pandemic, nations without domestic vaccines have been left behind with who knows how many dead, lockdowns + economic pains + supply shortages + postponed elections have led to terrible crises like the war in Ethiopia or the overthrow of democratically elected leaders like in Myanmmar.

As for the "community," that has slowly been disintegrating in modern societies around the world. I can only personally attest to not feeling like I belong to one myself, whether it be a neighborhood, church, workplace, or anything else that people find community in. Not necessarily for lack of trying, but for not finding a group of people who deeply understand and accept me - aka loneliness.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#232

Post by tsol »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #229
tsol wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did Thatcher make it so Americans don't really bother to know their neighbors anymore(can your believe people used to borrow a cup of sugar from their neighbors-- now I feel like that'd make be seen as crazy)? How did she make it so that people feel like calling is weird and people should just text(and dropping by unannounced is just annoying, even if your a friend, which in the past was considered an occasion to…

Please don't mistake my including that quote as asserting that Thatcher single-handedly lowered social trust. I used it as an example that sums up a broader ideological goal of a larger group of people. We both agree on the implications of such a change. Maybe you agree that some people pushed for systems which resulted in this conclusion and some occurred by other factors?

I see what you're saying, and it does indeed play a part in the grand picture. Many of the causes, though, are choices we made as a society. People don't want religion even if your tell them it offered important social benefits. They don't want to be forced to go somewhere one day a week, and they don't want a moral leader telling them they need to be love each other more, for example.

People also don't want to value just the presence of strangers, the way the in some countries the culture treats it as an honor just to invite people over to your home. Even in America a sense of neighborhoodliness was seen as a virtue in the past. That, though, is a positively strange idea in modern day America, in fact. I wouldn't even try to say I consider an honor to invite the awkward guy we work with over and talk with him(not saying I necessarily do have those virtues myself, I'm also a product of our times). People would not understand it at all.

I chose these particular examples because they were so common in the past and are now controversial. I'm sure someone will tell me they don't need religion or that some strains divided people more. I'm also sure some people will tell me it's weird and possibly even pointless to insist we all invite each other and make friends, even with the awkward people that have a hard time socializing, and I'm sure some will say they don't need that to be happy anyways.

Looking at large scale trends, though, these are things that were important to American society in the past that are now not so common. They were foundational to societies cohesivenessm. And they just haven't been replaced completely with institutions that replace those functions-- which is the key issue here. You don't have to be religious or invite lots of house guests-- I'm not saying that-- but damn if those kinds of things didn't provide benefits for society. And those also certainly aren't all the institutions that needs to be replaced.

I'm not entirely sure who pushed for these changes, but I do know people today relish them-- and even if their great grandparents can't out of the grave and said "I can tell your first hand these are the institutions that kept us from being lonely" I think many would still outright reject them.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#233

Post by multjoy »

vorpalhex wrote: post #102
raverbashing wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why do people think someone just going offline will magically start talking to people (where? with whom?) It's like telling an obese person to go exercise. It is meaningless advice. "Oh but can they figure it out right" Well, if they could maybe they wouldn't be so lonely. And even more in boomer style "just take your printed CV to McDonalds to get a job" pulling people offline might be just cutting the only soci…

If you spend all your time just mulling about online, or watching Netflix, or playing a game, then it's not surprising that you are lonely. You are engaging in solo activities that other people can't really join. It is not anymore surprising that you are overweight if you don't exercise, and especially if you aren't cooking at home ever. Cut out any drugs, go to bed at a reasonable hour, exercise, get a hobby, eat de…

>If you spend all your time just mulling about online, or watching Netflix, or playing a game, then it's not surprising that you are lonely.

I married someone I played an online game with. This idea that multiplayer gaming is somehow asocial is ridiculous.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#234

Post by Consultant32452 »

mandmandam wrote: post #215
Consultant32452 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The utter insidious evil of the election theft lie from trump is going to destroy the USA by removing any trust in elections. I have the unenviable position of being against trust in elections and also against Trump.

There are dozens of us.

We held the majority in 2016, but are nearly extinct now.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#235

Post by airmailspecial »

dogleash wrote: post #158
boh wrote: post #145

Loneliness isn't a problem. It's a necessary unpleasant state that promotes social activity akin to sleep pressure that forces you to sleep. The problem is that people are addicted to social simulacra (via social media) rather than actual social activity and so only accomplish temporary relief from the feeling of loneliness while retaining the state of loneliness (like binge drinking coffee instead of actually sleepi…

>Loneliness isn't a problem. This is a weird bone to pick. It's similar to saying "obesity isn't a problem, overeating is." Like, yeah, sure, you can frame it that way if you want. But what utility have you added? So that you can build up to the conclusion that lonely people ought to go socialize properly? That's pretty tautological advice there mate.

>This is a weird bone to pick. It's similar to saying "obesity isn't a problem, overeating is."

I read GP's comment more along the lines of "loneliness is akin to a hunger that drives the lonely person towards seeking deeper personal connection with others". Similarly to how some people argue that "boredom is a gift" which leads to creativity[0]. Instead of placating that hunger with poor substitutes, be it TV, netflix, social media, drugs etc, that drive can serve as motivation to seek out connection, the lack of which is ultimately the root cause of the loneliness.

[0]https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200522-how-boredom-can...

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#236

Post by TurkishPoptart »

retrac wrote: post #181
pjc50 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> go to a coffee shop, library.... Don't forget your mask. The pandemic is still on.

Not entirely sure why you're downvoted. I'm nearly deaf and I fully rely on lipreading. I've basically concluded I will have no social interactions in public until masks go away. I can't even make it through checkout sometimes without frustrating others. No one has the patience to try and bother to communicate with barriers. I can't count the number of times someone has finally screamed "never mind!" and made shooing…

I'm sympathetic to people with hearing impairment. It's a shame that most mask-wearing, at least in my area, is arguably "virtue signaling" as single-layer masks do largely nothing to prevent aerosolized viral transmission. N95s and other serious masks, on the other hand, actually work. So tired of seeing people walking their dogs in the park or bike-riding alone while wearing surgical masks. It literally does nothing except make me think those people are crazy. And this is in a county that is 85%+ vaccinated.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#237

Post by kelseyfrog »

tsol wrote: post #232
kelseyfrog wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't mistake my including that quote as asserting that Thatcher single-handedly lowered social trust. I used it as an example that sums up a broader ideological goal of a larger group of people. We both agree on the implications of such a change. Maybe you agree that some people pushed for systems which resulted in this conclusion and some occurred by other factors?

I see what you're saying, and it does indeed play a part in the grand picture. Many of the causes, though, are choices we made as a society. People don't want religion even if your tell them it offered important social benefits. They don't want to be forced to go somewhere one day a week, and they don't want a moral leader telling them they need to be love each other more, for example. People also don't want to value…

> I'm not entirely sure who pushed for these changes.

If a historical analysis isn't your thing(and I get that), the next best thing anyone can do is look for it in the present. Anywhere we see people pressing for the individualization of responsibility, assuming the inability of groups of people to affect positive change, or the "I'm not responsible for anyone but myself" attitude, we see a person with this mindset realizing a reality where everyone is more distant, alone, and lonely.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#238

Post by b3morales »

donkeyd wrote: post #125
jollybean wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to the later part, but first part not what they want. They want the dynamism of being able to change jobs and careers, they all want the opportunity for career progression which for the most part isn't there (it's always been competitive). That means more risk and all the things that come along with it. I think even 'remote work' will have a serious of consequences we're not ready to accept, which is…

> They want the dynamism of being able to change jobs and careers, they all want the opportunity for career progression which for the most part isn't there (it's always been competitive). Why do people want this though? 50 years ago, you could be a mechanic, work 50 hours a week and own a house. The wife could be at home to take care of the kids. These days, both have to work 60 hours a week to afford a rental apartm…

Absolutely. Another HN commenter put it very nicely in a recent similar thread: people are working so they can make enough money to afford to be able to work.

If two adults have to work full time to have a house with kids, then they also have to be making enough for child care and various other things that they might be able to do more cheaply if only one of them was working.

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#239

Post by seneca »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #237
tsol wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, and it does indeed play a part in the grand picture. Many of the causes, though, are choices we made as a society. People don't want religion even if your tell them it offered important social benefits. They don't want to be forced to go somewhere one day a week, and they don't want a moral leader telling them they need to be love each other more, for example. People also don't want to value…

> I'm not entirely sure who pushed for these changes. If a historical analysis isn't your thing(and I get that), the next best thing anyone can do is look for it in the present. Anywhere we see people pressing for the individualization of responsibility, assuming the inability of groups of people to affect positive change, or the "I'm not responsible for anyone but myself" attitude, we see a person with this mindset…

I think this is off-base. Not being a political Collectivist has very little to do with participation in civil society. Americans were far more Individualist in the past and had a much stronger civil society. Conservatives also tend to be more Individualist, but are also more involved in civil society, mostly through churches.

This opinion just doesn't reflect reality.

As always, the best analysis of the decline of civil society is Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone (and his subsequent research to supplement). It's a bit academic, and sometimes biased, but it spells the issues out quite well

Re: The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

#240

Post by jollybean »

BeaverFirewall6 wrote: post #231
jollybean wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'newspaper' is not a source of social issues, it's all political, particularly in the US. Your community is. Also, the global response to the pandemic has been the most amazing thing in human history: we have never been so rapid and coordinated. Never have international institutions worked together across the globe in concert like this. We had a vaccine crated before the disease even hit the West, we tested and m…

You bring up some good points, I agree the vaccine was a miracle and I hope we can find many more cures to all the diseases out there. However, I personally am more gloomy about how countries are witholding information about the origins of the pandemic, nations without domestic vaccines have been left behind with who knows how many dead, lockdowns + economic pains + supply shortages + postponed elections have led to…

China's coverup of their ills is a 2/10 for the bad things they have done even in recent history. That's normal.

As far as group cohesion, yes, it's a problem, I totally agree. Though don't think anyone 'understands' anyone, often not even their spouses or closest relatives, so keep your chin up and keep an open mind, be thankful for the things you do have.

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