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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#231

Post by amichal »

> Most American high schools teach algebra I in ninth grade, geometry in 10th grade and algebra II in 11th grade – something Boaler calls “the geometry sandwich.

It’s an exceedingly dumb setup. In my highschool it was optional in grade 9 and like another commenter said only 2 years of ANY math was required. Despite passing a placement test in 6th grade they made we wait till 8th grade to join the 9th grade “advanced” math class which taught algebra. My school did not even offer calculus for any grade which made it more or less impossible to even apply for any of the top us universities

Quote source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/02/28/mat...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#232

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

friedman23 wrote: post #46
darth_avocado wrote: post #14

Here's a revolutionary idea that pretty much all of the world adopts, if students are having trouble with a topic, get them to do more of it, instead of running away from it. I always find it hilarious that the pre college education in US is so messed up. Instead of doing Algebra 1, Algebra 2, calculus, geometry as one subject that you do in a year and then completely forgetting about it till the next time you have t…

How many people that are good at math and love science / engineering decide to go into politics? I'm just talking without evidence but my guess is politics self selects for ambitious people that are completely inept when it comes to mathematics and critical thinking in general.

https://hundred.org/en/innovations/student-government-lotter...

99pi did a story on this some time ago. Having an election means that kids who are shy or not popular miss out. But who would otherwise have valuable skills and want to contribute. So randomly selecting kids but giving them an out if they don’t like the job ended up working really well.

Can this be applied to government???

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#233

Post by cortesoft »

holonomically wrote: post #7

I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm

And Mozart was writing concertos at 5. Prodigies existing shouldn't define how we educate people.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#234

Post by [deleted] »

542458 wrote: post #214
bko wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter Yes and there are some kids that act up or learn to hate education and the system for being forced into what amounts to remedial classes. Sometimes the brightest children are the most difficult precisely because they're not being challenged. The ideal would be to have every student learn at their own pace. Some children could…

Gifted programs do very little or nothing as far as most studies can tell. Any gains in scores are very small, and they don’t appear to make any meaningful difference in student engagement or motivation. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089 These programs are relatively expensive, and there’s a strong argument the gifted programs should be overhauled, or that t…

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#235

Post by pessimizer »

unanswered wrote: post #203
bko wrote: post #56

This is one of those issues that I can't understand the opposing argument. It's just an issue I find so objectionable that I cannot understand why anyone would be imposing this. Literally holding kids back. The only defense I hear is that kids don't really benefit from advanced classes and they'll be fine anyway. But gifted children will not necessarily be fine. Most of the smartest people I know struggled in school…

You're not supposed to understand "the opposing argument", because it's fake. The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college. This will ensure that the demographics of the next generation are even more skewed toward social instabi…

[flagged]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#236

Post by RandallBrown »

Eelongate wrote: post #192
riversflow wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California requires 2 years of Math in high school. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/gs/hs/cefhsgradreq.asp

Good grief, how can that even work? If I had gone a full one or two years without any math class, I would have lost the habit and floundered when it came time to take a math class again. Are they deliberately setting kids up to fail in California?

Just because they're only required to take 2 years of math doesn't mean that is what most kids take.

If I recall this is how my high school was ~20 years ago and almost everyone still took at least 3 years of math with what felt like the majority still taking 4.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#237

Post by csa »

rootusrootus wrote: post #123
tppiotrowski wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second grade in Poland I remember problems like this when learning addition and subtraction: 3 + ? = 10 10 - ? = 3

My third grader does simple equations like this in math. This is public school in Oregon. A lot of people in this thread are making big assumptions and just using it as an excuse to trash the American educational system for ideological reasons.

> My third grader does simple equations like this in math.

Most third graders cannot consistently do the following:

10 - ? = 3

10 - ? (- 10) = 3 (- 10)

- ? = - 7

(-) ? = (-) 7

? = 7

This is absolute voodoo magic to most third graders. They may be able to memorize specific patterns, but they won’t be able to manipulate equations consistently and accurately.

Fwiw, at 3rd grade, some of the smarter kids might be able to understand and manipulate these abstractions, but those kids aren’t the norm.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#238

Post by Eelongate »

prepend wrote: post #138
kingcharles wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm British. For the lulz I decided to complete the US "GED": "The General Educational Development (GED) tests are a group of four subject tests which, when passed, provide certification that the test taker has United States or Canadian high school-level academic skills." (Wikipedia) I had not looked at what it encompassed before I signed up. I was given a huge book to study from. I glanced at it briefly each day for…

I guess you didn’t study the part where they teach you percentiles. 99th percentile is the highest you can score and means out of 100 people taking the class, you scored higher than 99 of them. That is good, but also consider that most people taking the GED have some sort of problem preventing them from completing a regular high school diploma.

> most people taking the GED have some sort of problem preventing them from completing a regular high school diploma.

Don't assume it's an academic problem though. My grandfather beat my father for years, until my father ran away from home when he was 15, consequently never finishing highschool. He got a GED years later, then eventually a masters degree. There are unfortunately many people in circumstances like his or similar, unable to finish highschool for non-academic reasons. It's important to keep this in mind because otherwise GEDs will be associated with poor academic performance, which is unfair.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#239

Post by sokoloff »

chrisseaton wrote: post #195
threatofrain wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's notable that Cupertino has some remarkable public schools, with high schools that have about half of their math faculty as Calculus teachers, and half of the students incoming from junior high are on track to finish Calculus by their junior year. Some students continue their math education at local colleges. Part of the success is most certainly the student culture, which pushes far harder than the faculty. It's…

> with high schools that have about half of their math faculty as Calculus teachers What does this mean? Is there some special qualification or licence to be allowed to teach calculus?

Both my parents were public school math teachers. There are gradations of teaching qualifications* in some districts and, even where there aren’t, the math department head usually knows which teachers are incapable of teaching beyond Algebra II or incapable of teaching specifically Calculus. Presumably, if a teacher has ever been assigned to teach a Calculus class, they are a Calculus teacher.

* Concrete example: our district had a shortage of high school qualified teachers. Middle school teachers were invited to apply with the understanding that they’d teach only general math, pre-Algebra, Algebra I, and Geometry.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#240

Post by readams »

542458 wrote: post #214
bko wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter Yes and there are some kids that act up or learn to hate education and the system for being forced into what amounts to remedial classes. Sometimes the brightest children are the most difficult precisely because they're not being challenged. The ideal would be to have every student learn at their own pace. Some children could…

Gifted programs do very little or nothing as far as most studies can tell. Any gains in scores are very small, and they don’t appear to make any meaningful difference in student engagement or motivation. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919 https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089 These programs are relatively expensive, and there’s a strong argument the gifted programs should be overhauled, or that t…

Gifted programs aren't the same thing as tracking kids into more advanced math classes. A gifted program is where you take some kids aside and teach them some random extra stuff, at the end of the day they're still in the regular classes with the other kids also and don't really have a chance to go any faster.
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