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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#231

Post by vesrin »

What I don't understand is why you are trying to compare programmers with doctors and lawyers. Why not choose fields that are more closely related and let's see how the average software developer is doing vs. those working in those fields?

For example, let's say, electronics engineer - I would hazard to say that the average software developer is earning higher than the average circuit designer.

Sure, you are saying that software is pervasive in our lives and extremly important - but all software runs on some hardware, which was designed by an electronics engineer.

Engineering and science related careers have never been amongst the top paid jobs in the society we live in - and you could argue for many engineering fields that they are amongst the most important jobs in our current economy (be it construction engineers, automotive, aerospace engineering, energy production, whatever). I don't really see why programmers should earn much more than people working in these fields.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#233

Post by jes5199 »

coliveira wrote: post #136
roel_v wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more." A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. There are quite a few 'programming' jobs for which having a CS degree is being overqualified , but let's say that a CS degree is the baseline. To become an MD, with the specialties that pay the amounts mentioned here, one needs t…

> A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. I don't know where you can get a good programming job if you don't even have a university degree. You can certainly freelance, but then there are no guarantees. The more frequently picture is that, to get a really good job (at Google, for example) you frequently need a MSc, and not few software engineers have a PhD too.

It's harder to get entry-level work without a degree, but after you have about four years of work experience, plenty of people will hire you, especially startups. (I know because I'm working in SF as a college dropout)

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#234

Post by TeMPOraL »

olliesaunders wrote: post #230
TeMPOraL wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a doctor, or a lawyer, or a freakin' sales guy, people will listen to your stories, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you are a programmer and even start to talk about what you do for a living, people's eyes will glaze in boredom instantly. What saddens me is that it happens inside the industry too. Too many times I have seen and talked to programmers who seem to consider themselves 'glorified…

Genuinely curious: “I respect people who came to programming 'for the money' rather than because of being interested” Why?

Until last year I was a programmer of pure heart, that would despise perspective of working 09:00-17:00 as a programmer, and then go home and 'have a life'. Programming for me was, and still is, a creative art and a tool to solve problems worth solving. However, since then I started working and actually earning money for my expenses, instead of relying on parents, and this pretty much shifted my perspective. You need to take money from somewhere if you want to eat (and support people both above and below you on the family tree). Also, it's really hard to find a job that would be perfectly aligned with your dreams/goals - that actually hurted the most. I understand now that people have different priorities, and life is not so simple, and people tend not to have everything 'figured out'.

While I still strive to find a way to give value to human society to the best of my abilities, and don't want to end in a corporate 0900-1700 job and make money for the sake of making money, I understand and respect people who chose differently. I believe, that there are other interesting things I might learn from them. However, I expect the same respect from them, that I give to them. Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#235

Post by baltcode »

coliveira wrote: post #182
baltcode wrote: post #118

One of the big reasons that lawyers and doctors make a lot more money is because they use regulation and the coercive power of the state for the benefit of their cartel. You are going to get a top of the line lawyer and pay through the nose because your business, freedom, even your life may depend on it. The number of lawyers and doctors is limited to an artificial shortage due to bar exams and number of residency sp…

I am not so sure that the free market does really offer what you're saying. For example, a big problem in have in the US is that a lot of smart people don't want to become programmers (for example, because they don't want to compete with programmers from India). But it is well known that the USA has more openings for programmers than available workers. So, it seems that the free market is not doing its job of moving…

Regulation would mean people being certified by the Louisiana Board of Computer Programming for the Wizwoz system 2.0. Yuck! Some of the software industry will move abroad, but even more most large countries will start having local markets. The thing going for software is very fast innovation and adoption, leading to IT, software, mobile undercutting a lot of traditional industries and practices, and this is just the beginning. Stopping it would mean killing the golden goose.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#236

Post by noarchy »

mattm wrote: post #216

Anecdotal but I was recently contracting for a place that was developing web software for the first time. Even though I had pretty much wrote all the code on their system with them having hired and gone through 5 other programmers, the comment that caused me to leave was "Why are we paying this guy when we could just hire someone from high school for $10/hr?"

You can also outsource the task to India for a similar amount, or even less, and get someone who will be better than a high schooler. That's the thing that should make some North American developers nervous.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#237

Post by vynch »

pnathan wrote: post #162
kree10 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though I think this plays into the poster's point about respect/prestige. Right or wrong, a popular perception in the USA is that a lawyer wears nice clothes to work, and likes to unwind with a round of golf, fine scotch, and a cigar. Whereas a programmer is an overgrown teenager, wearing ripped jeans, playing video games, and drinking Red Bull. Of course the lawyer should earn more than that guy.

Yeah, I think it's important to have the 'professional' costume for that reason. I mean, I've seen startups advertising their company kegs in recruiting. Like that's going to get you any respect from anyone but an early 20-something...

Case in point : Yelp

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#238

Post by drivingmenuts »

cmhamill wrote: post #193
drivingmenuts wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll hazard a guess that specialists tend to see patients with specific insurance-covered issues, and those issues are the expensive ones. GPs deal with everything and not all of those ailments are worth much, billing-wise, yet take the same amount of time. Or, 1 hour of a GPs time will usually result in a lower-return ailment than a Specialists 1 hour of time. Or the problem of the Craftsman vs. Assembly-Line Worker…

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Insurance really drives this, too: HMOs, especially, are constantly pushing for GPs to receive less and less for a given procedure. Combined with the role insurance companies play in (effectively) deciding what a patient does or doesn't "need,* insurance post-1990 has been trying very hard to convince doctors to do a worse job. My father, for example, had a practice for over 20…

What happened to your father is just plain wrong.

Growing up, we had a family doctor that we went to for everything and he referred us to a specialist if need be, but otherwise, he handled everything (which was pretty rare, luckily).

I'm slowly trying to establish the same relationship with a new doctor here (well, technically a Nurse-Practictioner).

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#239

Post by noarchy »

wes-exp wrote: post #201
randomdata wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The doctor who earns $300-400k went through a four-year university degree, four years of medical school, and a residency or fellowship before he started earning money. The market doesn't care about what you have done to get to where you are. If you spent the better part of a decade to acquire a Ph.D, you are not entitled to earn more money waiting tables at the local restaurant. The upper bounds of earning is only…

Yes, but the market does care about long schooling when it is a requirement to practice the profession. That's why it drives up wages in Medicine and Law.

It only cares a little bit in some professions, such as humanities professors. They almost certainly went to school for longer than the lawyer did, but make far less. So the market value in this case is closely related to the work that is being done.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#240

Post by rcfox »

cpeterso wrote: post #232

Is dress code a factor? Would you want your lawyer or doctor to have Star Wars toys and Nerf guns in their office? I propose "Formal Friday", where programmers wear ties and nice shirts (or skirts, as appropriate).

> Would you want your lawyer or doctor to have Star Wars toys and Nerf guns in their office?

Well, that depends... Do I get to play too?

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