Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux • Hacker News Board

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#231

Post by linedash » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 10:38 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #113

mAritz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's the issue though: You're seeing "Linux users" that only use Linux on their servers because they are somewhat forced to do so. I would actually expect that almost all of those people use Windows or MacOS for their local development.

And those hosts often are not using up to date packages and don't even have up to date security fixes at times. I recently moved a wordpress site I was working on from a local dev setup onto a live bluehost server and was immediately hit with a bunch of out of date package warnings. As the customer was using some cheap shared hosting service, there wasn't much I could really do about it.

Shared hoster here. More likely the app arbitrarily decided 'these versions of PHP are EOL', where the reality is that they're being maintained by a number of OS vendors.

Too many customers run really old versions of code that need older versions of PHP and so on. We can't not provide them without losing the business. We do of course, make newer versions available.

The other fun one we periodically get is customers doing PCI scans or similar and getting warnings for out of date versions of OpenSSL, Apache, etc. Nope; just backporting showing the old version numbers.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#232

Post by qayxc » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:05 AM UTC

ok123456 wrote: post #208

qayxc wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not platform specific at all. If your program spits out proper crash logs (which most games do), it's a matter of locating and examining the log file. The "if you know what you're looking at"-part is pretty much nonsense as you're basically saying "if you are an experienced programmer with intimate knowledge of both the system and the hardware architecture". This is not something a regular user should be expec…

>The "if you know what you're looking at"-part is pretty much nonsense as you're basically saying "if you are an experienced programmer with intimate knowledge of both the system and the hardware architecture". Same thing. > This is not something a regular user should be expected to know. A good program should simply provide a proper feedback-channel and collect and send the appropriate information if the user choses…

> Then why do all these bugs fall through the cracks on other platforms?

Two main reasons:

1) Other platforms are primarily used by non-technical individuals who simply don't care about the OS and who more often than not are unable to tell the difference between bad software ergonomics, user error, and software bugs in the first place.

2) The Linux platform is built around the concept of OSS, where user participation and direct feedback are an essential part of the ecosystem. Most OSS has bug tracking and Wikis that describe how to report a bug and quick release cycles (e.g. fast feedback from the user's perspective). Linux users make a conscious decision to use Linux and some level of involvement in the OSS community is often part of that decision.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#233

Post by thefr0g » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

wheels wrote: post #131

smoldesu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Pipewire and containerized distribution (eg. AppImage or god forbid, Flatpak), distributing Linux software can really be as complicated as you want it to be. Granted, audio software is still a bit confusing compared to Windows or MacOS, but with the advent of PipeWire I think most people are ready to put those days behind them. Another alternative is to drop Linux support and let your users make a Wine installer…

Yes, it is a VST plugin (and standalone), and amusingly probably works better in Wine than Native, aside from the fonts being craptastic. Containerized distribution doesn't really work for plug-ins. This is the first time I'm reading of Pipewire, and it sounds promising, but will need to have host support before it becomes a reasonable VST / LADSPA replacement. (I didn't see if that's among its goals, but such would…

> Yes, it is a VST plugin

Shouldn't that be the easiest way to distribute audio software for linux? It's just a static shared library and maybe some data.

> This is the first time I'm reading of Pipewire, and it sounds promising, but will need to have host support before it becomes a reasonable VST / LADSPA replacement.

I'm pretty sure they didn't mention pipewire as a replacement for vst or lv2 (or ladspa lol). It's benefit would be for your standalone since it supports alsa, jack and pulseaudio clients and can get decent latency.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#234

Post by tpxl » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:55 AM UTC

dopu wrote: post #97

This is great. By the way, one of the things that has often discouraged me from filing bugs is not really knowing how to do so. Sometimes, looking at issues on github, I find people provide super structured and clean descriptions of bugs. Then there are the other kind, that the author describes: “it crashes.” Is there a standard way of describing bugs? What resources/standards have people found useful to refer to whe…

There are a bunch of open source projects on github with issue templates. Have a look at a couple of those and pick one that suits you.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#235

Post by _fat_santa » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:39 PM UTC

wildrhythms wrote: post #45

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #20

On the other hand, a Windows user is trained not to report bugs, especially in games. There's rarely a channel for reporting things & simple bugs go unfixed unless the community can work out some hack to do it for themselves. Games are abandonware monoliths on day one. Secondly, if a program crashes in Windows and you try to force kill it, you get blocked waiting for the 'report' to be sent do Microsoft. Users are tr…

Do you think this has something to do with how many Windows programs (not just games) handle errors and crashes? Even Windows still uses the "Error code: " scheme. I can't even think of the last time I even attempted to get crash logs for a Windows program; however, on Linux I can usually find where logs got dumped and debug without as much of a headache.

I've noticed this too, compare any forum thread for a AAA Windows game and a Linux game, the Windows game thread is going to look like a bunch of chickens running with their heads cut off wondering why the 0x00423 error is causing the game to crash. Head over to a Linux thread and it's a usually a much more productive conversation because the errors are just clearer.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#236

Post by II2II » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

wildrhythms wrote: post #45

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #20

On the other hand, a Windows user is trained not to report bugs, especially in games. There's rarely a channel for reporting things & simple bugs go unfixed unless the community can work out some hack to do it for themselves. Games are abandonware monoliths on day one. Secondly, if a program crashes in Windows and you try to force kill it, you get blocked waiting for the 'report' to be sent do Microsoft. Users are tr…

Do you think this has something to do with how many Windows programs (not just games) handle errors and crashes? Even Windows still uses the "Error code: " scheme. I can't even think of the last time I even attempted to get crash logs for a Windows program; however, on Linux I can usually find where logs got dumped and debug without as much of a headache.

... and if you search for that meaningless number and manage to find a proper support page, you are usually left with as much information as you started with. I don't understand why open source developers are so much better in this respect, but the diagnostics usually leave me feeling as though I could solve the problem even when I don't have the technical skills to do so. Being able to comb through the logs to pinpoint the problem is a major contributor in this respect.

(The only counter example I can think of at the moment is Samba, and guess what ... it interfaces with Microsoft products!)

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#237

Post by II2II » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:47 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #170

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #20

On the other hand, a Windows user is trained not to report bugs, especially in games. There's rarely a channel for reporting things & simple bugs go unfixed unless the community can work out some hack to do it for themselves. Games are abandonware monoliths on day one. Secondly, if a program crashes in Windows and you try to force kill it, you get blocked waiting for the 'report' to be sent do Microsoft. Users are tr…

> On the other hand, a Windows user is trained not to report bugs Decades of dealing with open source projects hasn't been much better in my experience. I don't usually bother to submit bug reports because my experience is that they'll be ignored for a few years and then closed unceremoniously.

That depends. I've dealt with open source products where I've submitted a bug report, submitted a bit of code, had the developer say that the patch wouldn't work for a good reason, then push out a proper fix nearly immediately. On the other hand, I have heard many stories that reflect yours. I suspect the size of the user base is a major contributor. Popular projects have many people submitting "bugs" that are little more than low priority (to the developer) feature requests.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#238

Post by tristor » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

rsanek wrote: post #219

tristor wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are Amex customers higher value? Is it because they're typically business cards rather than personal? That's probably a part of it, but the real answer is because an Amex is a charge card, not a credit card, which means that whatever is spent on it MUST be paid off in full at the next billing cycle. The net effect of this, is that if your customers are shopping with an Amex, they're people who /have/ money, or…

Amex cards allow balances to be carried as long as a minimum is paid each month, just the same as with any other credit card. https://www.americanexpress.com/us/benefits/payment-flexibil... The primary reason Amex customers are more valuable is because most Amex cards carry an annual fee, which only more affluent folks can afford.

Pay Over Time is a new "feature", which traditionally was not possible on an Amex card. Technically speaking, if we want to be pedantic, American Express is a banking and finance entity and offers many account types including typical credit cards (American Express Blue, any of the branded Amex like the Delta or Hilton Amex).

The traditional American Express card, though, is a charge card and not-withstanding the new Pay Over Time "feature", requires the entire balance to be paid in full every billing cycle. The entire reason they're popular with businesses is it provides an easy way to effectively do Net 30 payment terms without having to deal with POs and invoicing.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#239

Post by simion314 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #225

simion314 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believer you, what I dislike is those people that push everyone into Arch and omit to add the things you added. I bet that a vanilla LTS where you only update for security reason is more stable and risk free.

Tbh. I would never directly (1) recommend arch to anyone for a simple reason, it requires some linux/unix skills to be worth it. If you have the skills I don't need to directly recommend it to you, you already know it. If you don't know it you likely don't have the necessary skills. Through by being opinionated about the choice of packages and way of setup and adding a QA Team, more CI and slightly delayed (non-secur…

I don't think a rolling release will ever work for casual users, there are too many configurations of hardware and things you might not know people are using, some package update could affect someone printer and you cost this person a job opportunity.

You would at least have to block the AUR on such a distro, there are too many patched kernels/packages there and too many recommendations to install X from the AUR.

Then you have the GUI chnanges in apps, it is too frustrating to make the user learn weekly some new GUI workflow because app X decided to improve stuff.

Arch has a great use case for people that actually need latest stuff and for the people that just really want the latest stuff to satisfy their appetite of checking new features.

Re: Despite having just 5.8% sales, over 38% of bug reports come from Linux

#240

Post by ok123456 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

qayxc wrote: post #232

ok123456 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The "if you know what you're looking at"-part is pretty much nonsense as you're basically saying "if you are an experienced programmer with intimate knowledge of both the system and the hardware architecture". Same thing. > This is not something a regular user should be expected to know. A good program should simply provide a proper feedback-channel and collect and send the appropriate information if the user choses…

> Then why do all these bugs fall through the cracks on other platforms? Two main reasons: 1) Other platforms are primarily used by non-technical individuals who simply don't care about the OS and who more often than not are unable to tell the difference between bad software ergonomics, user error, and software bugs in the first place. 2) The Linux platform is built around the concept of OSS, where user participation…

It's not just the community mentality of the users. Just by raw numbers there are going to be more "technical users" running on other platforms because the number of Linux users is so vanishingly small.

Most of the people trying to game on Linux are "non-technical" with regards to being able to debug random errors in some random binary. You can only really assume they have enough skill to put an Ubuntu image on to a flash drive, boot it, and follow a few prompts.

The software tools are just better for locating, reporting, and communicating these errors are just better on Linux. Not treating your users like morons and giving users actual feedback about why something crashed instead of writing out crash reports to disk that never get sent anywhere is apparently a more effective way of tackling software defects.