A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco • Hacker News Board

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#231

Post by refurb » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:08 AM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #225

refurb wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’re saying any attempt by a politician to go and talk to homeless people in person - not to get to the root of the cause, but just to listen to them and observe - should be avoided as it’s just a publicity stunt? And what do you mean “ignore the problem”? I directly quoted his conclusion which included “we should do more to house them”. Can you point to a conclusion of his where he actively sought to ignore the…

I think you two might be talking past each other here. There's nothing wrong with a politician (i.e. an elected leader) getting first hand experience with an issue. Many leaders do this all the time and get depressingly little press for it--and others do it purely for a PR win unmindful of the cynicism they're generating. I think this mayor was sincere in his intent, and also I think it's a good habit to assume posit…

Can you quote the exact statement by the mayor that you feel is unfair and/or unhelpful?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#232

Post by habosa » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:08 AM UTC

If you live in San Francisco and want to do something to end homelessness, consider a donation to Larkin Street Youth Services: https://larkinstreetyouth.org/

They help homeless youth ages 12-24 in San Francisco with a full range of services. Housing, mental and physical health, education, job training, etc. 75% of the people that enter their program exit street life permanently.

I have worked with them for years and can vouch for the character of their employees and the effectiveness of their programs.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#233

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:16 AM UTC

profeatur wrote: post #228

Whenever this topic comes up the conversation always centers around money or housing or other brute physical facts. It should be obvious by now that this problem is not about material resources but is something deeper and much more intractable. American society has died. Many here will reply that that’s a good thing, and then continue complaining about the wealth divide or housing or whatever else fits their politica…

[deleted]

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#234

Post by csee » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #24

DoreenMichele wrote: post #3

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

Exactly. While I think there is an argument to be made that many of SF's/California's policies are counterproductive (e.g. treating all theft The same thing is happening in Austin. As a liberal city in Texas with relatively homeless-friendly policies, it was been well-documented that many rural areas in Texas are giving their homeless one-way bus tickets to Austin. So we're left with the dilemma that relatively liber…

Ok but it's also been documented that SF gives bus tickets, too. Everywhere is giving bus tickets. So if you're using this argument you'll need to show that SF is giving less bus tickets per homeless population.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#235

Post by throwaway313313 » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

RobLach wrote: post #191

Homelessness is a solved problem. SF residents don't want the solution. Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it. In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands. Bulldozing a single family home to…

All organisms or systems that can grow have limits.

In biology, this is typically either the ability to eat or the ability to eliminate waste.

A city will always reach a limit. It could be water, transportation infrastructure, economically viable activities given the location, etc, or if you are lucky as a result of the location being desirable, physical space.

You can't build your way out of the San Francisco affordability issue even if you (for example) double the aid per homeless person and double the free housing.

There is an error in the common thinking about the homeless problem in San Francisco.

San Francisco has a homeless problem because it's affluent and provides services, not despite being affluent and providing services.

If San Francisco wanted to provide assisted living for members of society that can't support themselves, it would get the most bang for it's buck to provide food, shelter, clean bathrooms, trash services, electricity, and wifi in other willing cities in California. You could build a range of accommodations and shelters, all the way from campsites to cabins to resorts, and you could get user feedback from the residents to determine which operators to expand with and which facilities to shut down.

The idea of trying to build your way out of homeless problem in the most expensive and physically constrained city in California is madness. That's just enriching the interests that have become the San Francisco homeless industrial complex.

Article: "S.F. pays $61,000 a year for one tent in a site to shelter the homeless. Why?"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/S-F-pays-61-000-a-...

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#236

Post by rwbt » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

profeatur wrote: post #228

Whenever this topic comes up the conversation always centers around money or housing or other brute physical facts. It should be obvious by now that this problem is not about material resources but is something deeper and much more intractable. American society has died. Many here will reply that that’s a good thing, and then continue complaining about the wealth divide or housing or whatever else fits their politica…

Very well said. This is really the price of progress and technology. Ironically, we still fool ourselves thinking that the way out of this mess is even more technology and progress.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#237

Post by drsnow » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:20 AM UTC

profeatur wrote: post #228

Whenever this topic comes up the conversation always centers around money or housing or other brute physical facts. It should be obvious by now that this problem is not about material resources but is something deeper and much more intractable. American society has died. Many here will reply that that’s a good thing, and then continue complaining about the wealth divide or housing or whatever else fits their politica…

We don't need god

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#238

Post by csee » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:23 AM UTC

mgummelt wrote: post #52

DoreenMichele wrote: post #3

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

The author argues that housing prices are not a significant factor: "Throughout it, they emphasized that the homeless were just like you and me, just poorer. Today, many of California’s leading homelessness advocates insist that the current crisis is due mostly to the housing shortage. Homelessness experts and advocates disagree. 'I’ve rarely seen a normal able-bodied able-minded non-drug-using homeless person who’s…

What if part of the reason they got hooked on drugs was they were down on their luck 8-15 years ago, and she's only seeing the end result of chronic drug abuse? There's a high correlation between low SES and ice use. I know of three ice users in my broader circle and they're all very very poor but don't otherwise have mental health issues. Her impressions as a field doctor are useful but I am sceptical and this needs more rigorous study.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#239

Post by camgunz » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:30 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #231

camgunz wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you two might be talking past each other here. There's nothing wrong with a politician (i.e. an elected leader) getting first hand experience with an issue. Many leaders do this all the time and get depressingly little press for it--and others do it purely for a PR win unmindful of the cynicism they're generating. I think this mayor was sincere in his intent, and also I think it's a good habit to assume posit…

Can you quote the exact statement by the mayor that you feel is unfair and/or unhelpful?

Sure but, I feel like you're gonna try and deeply litigate it so, I'm skeptical it'll be productive:

"What isn’t working is spending more money on it without changing behaviors. People are never going to [move] forward with their lives. You don’t want to be in a situation with public policy where you’re enabling really bad, destructive behavior."

It might sound kind of anodyne, but it's basically what leaders say when they're playing the personal responsibility card.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#240

Post by csee » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 7:30 AM UTC

TedShiller wrote: post #12

I have some bad news for "housing advocates": More housing will never be the solution to the homeless problem. You want to see a lot of drug users and homeless people? You'll find them in areas of dense housing. Secondly, there is no "housing shortage". You're just looking in the wrong place. That's like saying there is a shortage of air in outer space.

There's no shortage, technically, because supply and demand finds equilibrium, but that equilibrium is at an extremely high price which is pricing out everyone except the rich.