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Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

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Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#231

Post by ziddoap »

pdimitar wrote: post #208
ziddoap wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yeah, thanks for nothing -- namely for stating the ideal theoretical state of things -- but a lot of people out there need actual real-time protection, on the spot. I don't understand why you would be upset that an organization that spends most of its time with court-related battles is, once again, dealing with court-related things. Should the EFF be putting boots on the ground in some sort of vigilante project…

The only thing I'll say is that all of this has been parroted to death, ever since the 70s, and I am not seeing an improvement anywhere. People love this fuzzy feeling that they are "spreading awareness" and that "we must start somewhere" but historically, I've lived long enough to not see those make any difference so far. But I really don't want to debate. I came to state anecdotal evidence + opinion. Neither of whi…

There is a vast difference between reaching the supreme court with your amicus briefs and "spreading awareness" in a blog post.

They also aren't mutually exclusive.

>But I really don't want to debate. I came to state anecdotal evidence + opinion.

This is always funny to read. Write a strongly worded opinion, but refuse to engage with others.

>but historically, I've lived long enough to not see those make any difference so far.

Out of curiosity, in your long lived life, how many times have you seen amicus briefs written to the supreme court defending 5th amendment rights?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#232

Post by revolvingocelot »

oogali wrote: post #76
63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

A former colleague summarized this as "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride". Meaning, your exit via means of reciting legal code matters in a court room or in front of a prosecutor, but it won't get you out of the ride to the police station -- or in this case: a trip to the coercion back room.

"the process is the punishment"

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#233

Post by Ansil849 »

Here's the thing: you can have all sorts of detached, academic discussions on a forum like HN or on a blogpost about what the best thing to do is, or the most pragmatic thing, or the worst thing when dealing with a police encounter.

But if you ever find yourself in a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, none of this discussion matters. I've had that happen to me (when an AirBNB owner failed to mention that they have a silent alarm system which calls the police). It is not pleasant, and there are no clever things to do or say. You will do whatever the cop wants, because you do not want to be shot.

People don't like hearing this. They like to think of themselves as being smart, as having self-respect and dignity, as being able to 'speak truth to power' or at least stand their ground. That, unfortunately, is not the reality.

Should you encounter, at some point in your life, a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, you will do whatever the fuck they are telling you to do. That's the grim reality.

It is an utterly dehumanizing, degrading interaction. There are no witty things to say or do. You will do whatever you are told, because a person is pointing a deadly weapon at you and telling you to do them.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#234

Post by mschuster91 »

pdimitar wrote: post #220
mschuster91 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically airport security can't make you unlock your phone in many countries as well but I've known two former colleagues who were "convinced" to do so in the airport's back room; the one where problematic passengers are held for 8-24h. Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essen…

> Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essentially a digital striptease search with orifice controls. Same here. I am curious about the USA but after reading and hearing a bunch of stories... really, no thanks. I know chances are slim but I still don't want to risk it. > No wonder, g…

> USA has a really strong propaganda system and it's a shame that even on HN, where people should be more critical thinkers, this is not widely recognized.

That's the fault of "American exceptionalism". At least one positive thing happened as a result of the 45th - Americans can no longer deny that their nation is immune from falling into the hands of a proto-fascist and a gang of cronies and goons in his wake.

Anyway, the list of points is (sans the pledge) applicable across most countries in the Western world... partially because a lot of our culture is US-influenced (social networks, but first and foremost Hollywood's media industry) and because our media isn't much better. Germany's most influential BILD tabloid is a rag that spreads authoritarianism and right-wing ideology, and the cop show Tatort consistently has peak TV attendance rates.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#235

Post by avs733 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #230
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

That's why you need a good lawyer, to bring your story to the public, sue the damn police department and get justice! And then the cop gets 2 weeks of paid suspension, taxpayers pay you 20k in 'damages', and your lawyer costs only 35k.

the one part of this I will defend is taxpayers footing the bill.

Frankly, the government employs cops on our behalf and they act on behalf of the population. This type of behavior is part of the American culture of policing, it is not 'individual bad actors'. We should bear the cost of them acting improperly. I vehemently object to us creating a culture where police are expected to behave in this way but then are personally responsible when they get caught doing what is expected. Cops should pay the criminal costs for their actions, but the liability belongs to those who employ them and empower them - us.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#236

Post by throwawayboise »

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #92
oogali wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A former colleague summarized this as "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride". Meaning, your exit via means of reciting legal code matters in a court room or in front of a prosecutor, but it won't get you out of the ride to the police station -- or in this case: a trip to the coercion back room.

I listened to a legal symposium once that was held by lawyers who specialize in self defense/use of force. Think "I have a concealed weapon and I killed someone in self defense - now what?" They all agreed that their clients worry far too much about being arrested. Their legal advice was unanimous: you just took someone's life, you are absolutely going to be arrested, nothing you could possibly say will change that.…

Is Alec Baldwin in jail yet?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#238

Post by pdimitar »

ziddoap wrote: post #231
pdimitar wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I'll say is that all of this has been parroted to death, ever since the 70s, and I am not seeing an improvement anywhere. People love this fuzzy feeling that they are "spreading awareness" and that "we must start somewhere" but historically, I've lived long enough to not see those make any difference so far. But I really don't want to debate. I came to state anecdotal evidence + opinion. Neither of whi…

There is a vast difference between reaching the supreme court with your amicus briefs and "spreading awareness" in a blog post. They also aren't mutually exclusive. > But I really don't want to debate. I came to state anecdotal evidence + opinion. This is always funny to read. Write a strongly worded opinion, but refuse to engage with others. >but historically, I've lived long enough to not see those make any differe…

Funny -- only if you don't know what the words mean. Both are not strictly facts so any discussion around them is bound to derail into... exactly what's going on here.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#239

Post by melony »

63 wrote: post #62
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Too much of legal procedures relies on 'discretion' rather than protocol.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#240

Post by giantg2 »

NoGravitas wrote: post #210
giantg2 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it's only a matter of time until enough people get screwed by the system, see the blatant hypocrisy, realize that this is an oligarchy, and the system collapses. Maybe I'm just an optimist. One thing that individuals do have power to do (but will be fought vehemently on) is jury nullification. Sadly, most don't know this, and/or are easily manipulated into believing the people in power. 2-10% of incarcera…

The tricky bit about jury nullification is that you must hide your knowledge of jury nullification from the DA in order to get on the jury. And if you lie in order to do so, then you can just be thrown off the jury and replaced with an alternate.

True, some jurisdictions will even charge you if you lie during selection. Some jurisdictions don't ask about it though.
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