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After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

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Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#231

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

mojzu wrote: post #109
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that the socialist system he wished for produces the most bullshit jobs, as in bureaucracy upon bureaucracy. That's also the simple solution to why they exist: governments don't really care about efficiency, as they don't spend their own money. So you have bullshit jobs in bureaucracy, and in people having to cater to bureaucracy.

There are plenty of cases of efficient and inefficient processes in both capitalist and socialist systems, if any can be described as being wholly one or the other anymore. As a direct example to your point, compare the amount of bureaucracy in the US healthcare system to the UK's NHS (and how much extra that costs people per capita), or many other countries that are described as having socialist healthcare systems

So is there more or less bureaucracy in US and non-US healthcare? And how free markte is US health care really?

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#232

Post by moistly »

mdp2021 wrote: post #229
moistly wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself, I guess. Feel special!

Our individual CVs, skills and perks are none of your business. In fact, back to the point, HN is very surely different from other places because this comment of yours has no whatsoever place here. That you afford to utter it confirms your misunderstanding of the place: you must have not read the guidelines properly, nor have verified them vis-a-vis the actual threads.

Never asked for shit from you, buddy, so feel free to keep your biz your biz.

Back to the point, after thirty-two years of hanging out in BBS networks, Usenet, and dozens of web social media sites, I see nothing special about HNs denizens, other than an inflated sense of their own worth. This site has as many idiots and blowhards as any other.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#233

Post by furgooswft13 »

dbingham wrote: post #176
furgooswft13 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all bog-standard bolshevik/communist propaganda dressed up in modern lingo. Your "co-ops" are just "soviets" (literal definition "council"). These "worker councils" were officially democratic as laid out in various USSR constitutions, and even the names of some communist bloc countries such as East Germany (German Democratic Republic) and North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea). In practice of cou…

No the co-ops I'm talking about are businesses democratically run by their workers and they exist in the current economy with out coersion. Ever heard of Mondragon? 80,000 worker owner cooperative operating out of Spain for decades. Had an Equal Exchange chocolate bar? King Arthur Flour? There's no reason you couldn't write the laws of business structure in such a way that all businesses have to be run democratically…

Laws imply coercion and force, by definition.

If you and your hippie friends wanna band together and start a commune somewhere and commit mass suicide (or something), I got no problem with that. Just don't force everyone else to join you by gun point (the logical endpoint of enforcing laws).

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#234

Post by jdgoesmarching »

nightski wrote: post #137
jdgoesmarching wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This article is pretty clear about its intent: don’t be lulled into a false sense of economic security after the pandemic and build this experience into our understanding of our system. The first step of any solution is convincing people there is a problem. Not just the obvious “things are bad,” but an understanding that these issues are systemic in a way that challenges American ideology. These articles frus…

This doesn't challenge assumptions of capitalism in any meaningful way. In fact my impression reading it was how the author seemed to fundamentally misunderstand finance. I'd love to hear thoughts on how it would be done differently, but he doesn't get that far and rather just makes shallow statements.

It is one thing to say that you are not convinced by his arguments, but it’s pretty clear that he directly questions our conception of financial markets, markets more broadly, and our definition of “economy” that are key components of capitalism.

In fact, he challenges it so directly that you confuse his intentional materialist characterization of finance as a misunderstanding. Mostly, I think this is a result of our ideology being so pervasive under capitalism that we are accustomed to describing our artificial economic structures as borderline laws of physics. Graeber here is simply trying to insert a wedge into that line of thinking, not propose an entire alternative socioeconomic process.

It’s a bug report, not a pull request.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#235

Post by dang »

mdp2021 wrote: post #230
dang wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of people on HN are ancap or fascists This sort of generalization is notoriously unreliable and subject to cognitive bias. People are far more likely to notice what they dislike, and to weight it more heavily. This produces false feelings of generality: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... That's why users with opposing…

Since we are here, Daniel, and also with reference to something I wrote nearby: I think the guidelines should be augmented, in terms of "downvoting without justification should be frowned upon". Otherwise, some would be tempted to just downvote something because they "feel differently": posts are not polls ("how many like strawberry, how many dislike it"). In general, downvoting should be accompanied by posting the u…

It is a common suggestion but I think it would be a mistake to require people to post reasons for their downvotes. It would produce a ton of noise (because people would just make shit up) and dramatically increase meta-bickering about downvotes, which we already have too much of.

Edit: here's a partial list of past explanations about this, in case anyone is interested in seeing how it has come up over the years: https://news.ycombinator.com/downvote-reasons

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#236

Post by dang »

moistly wrote: post #228
mdp2021 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is little need for formal studies. HN is very surely different from «other social media platform[s]»: you must have never been on Reddit or YT, to provide examples of diametrically opposite places. A quick look at information density and "where the uttering came from" (say, above the neck, below the hips or other guts) should clearly show a massive, radical difference. That feelings influence voting, in terms o…

Whatever you gotta tell yourself, I guess. Feel special!

Please don't be an asshole in HN comments, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. You've done this repeatedly (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28673020), and that's not cool.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#237

Post by dang »

moistly wrote: post #232
mdp2021 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our individual CVs, skills and perks are none of your business. In fact, back to the point, HN is very surely different from other places because this comment of yours has no whatsoever place here. That you afford to utter it confirms your misunderstanding of the place: you must have not read the guidelines properly, nor have verified them vis-a-vis the actual threads.

Never asked for shit from you, buddy, so feel free to keep your biz your biz. Back to the point, after thirty-two years of hanging out in BBS networks, Usenet, and dozens of web social media sites, I see nothing special about HNs denizens, other than an inflated sense of their own worth. This site has as many idiots and blowhards as any other.

Sorry to pile on the scolding I already posted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28963043), but I don't think this description of HN users is either accurate or fair. You can find samples of anything in any large-enough sample, but the median HN user doesn't say that they're special, and we certainly would never claim such a thing.

Comments like this are one reason why we added this guideline: "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." I can appreciate the reasons for supercilious putdowns on the internet, but they make for lousy conversation.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#238

Post by mostertoaster »

nindalf wrote: post #147
mostertoaster wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it kind of reminds me of why I thought Bernie Sanders was once a useful voice. He was willing to point out realities that most political elites wanted to keep hidden. His solutions though are crap, and he has profited greatly off the misfortune of the poor.

Sanders has profited off the misfortune of the poor? How so?

Because he exploits their situation to promise them free stuff by taking from the wealthy. That wealth taken might give some poor a token gift, but mostly it ends up in the pockets of bureaucrats.

Maybe not, maybe he only has one modest home which is still more than the people he appeals to, but not utterly hypocritical.

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#239

Post by dang »

mdp2021 wrote: post #191
glogla wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what gets up and downvoted, most of people on HN are ancap or fascists. I guess it makes sense - startups are gold rush, VC's are the ones giving away shovels for portion of gold should there be any, and founders are people who either found gold or believe they will. I wonder if most of people have political outlook like this. If they do, it is both sad and comforting, because then the humanity is doomed to…

Upvote and downvote do not work that way at HN and should not be interpreted that way without analysis. Here it is not about how you feel: it is about whether you make sense. Experience mostly reflects the principle (some noise must be expected).

I think you may have a mistaken impression of how downvotes work on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

Re: After the pandemic, we can’t go back to sleep (2020)

#240

Post by moistly »

dang wrote: post #237
moistly wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never asked for shit from you, buddy, so feel free to keep your biz your biz. Back to the point, after thirty-two years of hanging out in BBS networks, Usenet, and dozens of web social media sites, I see nothing special about HNs denizens, other than an inflated sense of their own worth. This site has as many idiots and blowhards as any other.

Sorry to pile on the scolding I already posted ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28963043 ), but I don't think this description of HN users is either accurate or fair. You can find samples of anything in any large-enough sample, but the median HN user doesn't say that they're special, and we certainly would never claim such a thing. Comments like this are one reason why we added this guideline: " Please don't sn…

“Here it is not about how you feel: it is about whether you make sense” claims specialness and, yes, I took the bait. Sorry.
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