Live data from Hacker News

Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

nytimes.com

231–240 of 354 posts

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#231

I'm a huge fan of Warren Buffet but in this case I think the math just doesn't seem right. I don't have the exact numbers, I took data from wikipedia and the NYT article, so, please, let me know if my math is way off. From the article, there are about 200,000 people with income of $1M+. Let's make it $5M per person. That's 1 trillion USD combined income. The rest of the taxpayers seem to be about 200,000,000 with an…

Your big assumption there that those 200,000 people with income of $1M+ have an average of $5M per person is where your logic fails. This source: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=a7jenngfc4um7_&#... shows the US total personal income for 2010 being over 12.5 trillion, your two groups only add up to 6 trillion.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am certainly going to believe your hazy handwaving over his direct statements: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/#comment-64... Of course, I didn't need that to know where he went wrong: I know actual poor people in the US. Maybe you should go meet some.

My family is actually at the bottom 1%. We can afford a solid standard of living at $15K-$20K salaries because of corporate behemoths like Walmart, which I assume you despise, feed, clothe, and entertain our family at $15 per day. Maybe you shouldn't generalize about poor people.

If you have salaries (plural!) in the $15-20k range, then you are nowhere near the bottom 1%:

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=2363 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

The poverty line for one person is $10.9k. For a family of four, $22.4k. That covers circa 15% of the population. For comparison, the median income is $44k, so if you're making $30-40k per year (assuming two salaries) then that's not far from the average American household.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice you've dodged my question three times in a row. I don't agree or disagree with your statistics. They're irrelevant, because Scalzi is describing things he has seen, and that match things I have seen. In the lives of actual poor people. In the US.

Are you serious? You're dismissing statistics because you believe your anecdotal evidence holds more weight? You're now an expert on poor people because of the things you have "seen" and someone else has "seen"? Please quit it with the BS. You're not poor. You're not around poor people. Stop describing how poor people live.

I am dismissing his statistics because they do not have bearing on the question that we were discussing, which is whether or not Scalzi was describing poverty in the US. Scalzi is definitely an expert on what he has seen. I'm an expert on what I have seen. As are the hundreds of other contributors to that discussion.

I am definitely not poor now. But we were poor when I was a kid, and only made it through via the help of family and government programs. I am still in regular contact with people who are not as lucky as I was. So enough with your baseless assertions, ok?

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting absurd. Poor people in America aren't as poor as you think. I absolutely hate it when people like you generalize how poor people live. Reading a blog post does not make you an expert on the poor or the bottom 1%. Try living it, like my family has. None of us are starving (a lot of us are fat in fact), and we all have smart phones and game consoles.

Suggesting the bottom 1% has game consoles and smartphones is a) ridiculously wrong, and b) irrelevant. Regarding wrong, The bottom 0.2% don't even have housing , which is going to make a game console hard to use. The I was talking just this morning with somebody doing financial literacy programs, and they decided against doing a web or smartphone tool because most of the people they are trying to reach don't have re…

This is getting absurd. What I find a ridiculously disgusting is your pretentiousness is assuming how poor Americans live. You're justifying your argument based on a shoddy and superficial experience with poor people?

My family immigrated from a third world country and the adult members earn ~$20K salaries. The children have a free and subsidized $10K+ education, is safe (yes, the ghetto isn't on high alert for drive by shootings 24/7), have access to clean water (yes, we use the same water that you use), healthy food which can be purchased at Walmart for a price much less than prices you can pay for food at a fast food restaurant. (Yes, we all don't eat at fast foods).

We also have access to the free emergency room when needed, and dental services for my family goes for about $35 per visit (it's subsidized in a lot of cases actually). The poor in America do not live like the poor in third world countries. Quit insinuating that and stop assuming how poor Americans in 2011 live. We're not as poor as you make us out to be.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#235
post #22

The problem is getting low to middle income people to stop voting against themselves. Good luck with that, they all seem to think they are going to be billionaires someday so better keep those billionaire taxes low. Either that or by bribing the wealthy with low taxes they might only ship out half the jobs overseas instead of all of them. It's just dumbfounding. Election after election, over and over.

I keep trying to formulate my take on this, and failing, but here goes anyway: The democratic party and American leftists no longer understand non-college working people and, for the most part, no longer reach out to them. Working people think that the left today advocates either for weirdos or for the completely screwed up, and wants everybody to pay for its programs to help said weirdos and fuckups. There is some v…

I think you would get a big kick out of the work of Eric Hoffer.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#236
Warren's real federal tax rate on 99% of his income: 59%

A portfolio company makes $1 in income. Without any taxes, Warren could put $1 in his pocket if he wished. Instead the portfolio company (Wells Fargo) pays 33% taxes, then the holding company (Berkshire) pays 29% taxes, then Warren pays 15% dividend taxes. In the end it's 59%, all of which is really truly a tax on Warren once the smoke and mirrors go away. (- 1 (* 1 0.67 0.71 0.85)) => 0.595655

So right now 7 out of 12 months of his income is taken by the federal government, and he thinks they should take more! Maybe 9 out of 12 months, where ideally (in his mind) the state government would then come in and take the rest.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you disagree with any of the statistics I've cited? Or are you merely dismissing them as "handwaving" because they don't fit your preconceived notions?

I notice you've dodged my question three times in a row. I don't agree or disagree with your statistics. They're irrelevant, because Scalzi is describing things he has seen, and that match things I have seen. In the lives of actual poor people. In the US.

I ignored the question because the answer is irrelevant. One can gain knowledge about the world via statistics, not merely personal acquaintance, and statistics also tend to be more useful.

However, to answer your question, yes. I know poor people. I've lived most of my adult life in poor neighborhoods. My experiences tend to agree with what the official statistics say - most poor people eat enough or perhaps too much (virtually none are underfed), don't work much and do not live in overcrowded homes.

These are the specific points on which I disagreed with Scalzi. I cited statistics which back up my position.

You are also dodging a question, so I'll ask it again: which set of statistics do you disagree with? The BLS, the Census or the USDA?

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#238

All of the comments here attacking Warren Buffett's authenticity, suggesting that he should put his money where his mouth is and write the Treasury a big fat check, are missing the whole point. Services provided by the government are public goods. It's blindingly obvious that a single person cannot pay for those public goods. Just Buffett's own contributions, no matter how much he donates, will not be enough to solve…

Agreed. He's not trying to "make a donation", he's saying that everyone should share the burden - including himself and people like him. It's not just that the rich kids should pay for the park, it's that everyone but the rich kids are being asked to pay some extra.

Does Mr Buffett employ an accountant to do his taxes? Does said accountant employ any tax avoidance strategies?

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#239
post #46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The great bulk of the legal voters of the South were men who owned no slaves; their homes were generally in the hills and poor country; their facilities for educating their children, even up to the point of reading and writing, were very limited; their interest in the contest was very meagre—what there was, if they had been capable of seeing it, was with the North; they too needed emancipation. -Ulysses S. Grant Peo…

I've come to the conclusion that the logic becomes "well if I can't have it, no-one will". People basically trying to take away assistance/help to others by trying to vote it away from everyone, since they somehow perceive themselves as better than others suffering on the lower rungs on society. This also explains why people try to vote away unions and benefits for teachers/schools, the very foundation of society, wh…

"I've come to the conclusion that the logic becomes "well if I can't have it, no-one will"."

I don't think the poor who consistently vote Republican really care about the economics of social services. That's too removed and abstract a concept for them (ironic, given that it affects them directly). Instead, they're voting emotionally: on social values, and on the politics of identity and nationalism. These abstract concepts are very "real" to a lot of Americans, because they're the things people cling to and hold fast when everything else is taken from them.

Bear in mind that a lot of these people have seen social values work for them amidst their own circumstances. Those among them who work their asses off, keep out of trouble, go to church, stay clean, and don't overspend will do markedly better than their peers who slack off, abuse government assistance, and engage in reckless behavior. Meanwhile, a preponderance of military personnel are drawn from the families of the working poor -- so these folks eat, breathe, and sleep patriotism. They love America, even if the version of "America" they love is largely a myth.

Republicans have become masters of speaking the language of identity politics and values. They understand what tune these guys want to dance to, and they play it flawlessly. Meanwhile, Democrats are tonedeaf. Nevermind that Democrats may actually have the interests of the little guy in mind; they don't speak the little guy's language. And that makes all the difference.

Case in point: the Democrats consistently talk about "the middle class," and sometimes "the working class" or "the poor." Meanwhile, Republicans always talk about "Americans." They rarely even speak of classes or social divides. It's a brilliant rhetorical gesture, because it recognizes that the working classes don't enjoy hearing about how shitty their lives are. They don't like the labels. If you ask them, many of them won't even agree that they're "working class" or "poor." They're in denial, and it's a defiant denial. They're too proud to face reality, and when Dems constantly throw the reality of their misery in their faces, they get angry and resentful.

Re: Warren Buffett: Stop coddling the super rich

#240
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. He's not trying to "make a donation", he's saying that everyone should share the burden - including himself and people like him. It's not just that the rich kids should pay for the park, it's that everyone but the rich kids are being asked to pay some extra.

Does Mr Buffett employ an accountant to do his taxes? Does said accountant employ any tax avoidance strategies?

Wouldn't you if you had tons of money?, especially if all the other "rich kids" are doing the same?. If you expect people to always do the altruistic thing then be prepared for a life full of disappointment. The best you can do is try to shape peoples behavior.

Personally I would prefer a flat percentage rate of tax with an exception for very low incomes where it just isn't worth the governments time trying to collect it.

This would probably raise most peoples tax and lower rich peoples tax but I believe it is "fairer" for everybody to pay the same fixed proportion of their income. At the same time though I would simplify business taxes as well, get rid of loopholes, stop companies that do business in a country off shoring their profits. It is insane that some companies view their accounting departments as profit centers.

Flat tax economies boom, and they are progressive in the sense that there is no penalty for trying to earn more money.

Post reply on HN