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Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

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Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#231

Post by dataangel »

hutzlibu wrote: post #106
marcinzm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. That just seems like standard for spy agencies along with a pretty mild black propaganda angle. Even books about WW2 propaganda cover the topic. I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been.

"I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. " They do. But maybe they do, because of being told by the governments and in schools, that the CIA and co only fight terrorist and evil empires. Those leaks showed the general public more of the real picture, not the fake official one. And sure, they do not like that.

How is making it look like one adversary hacked another adversary when it was really the CIA evidence against them fighting evil empires? It is exactly what I would expect them to do against an evil empire.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#232

Post by throw_this_one »

simorley wrote: post #148
deanCommie wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree with everything you're saying. However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. In this fight, while the US was far more evil than anyone cared to admit at the time, and the USSR far less than the US propaganda would have you believe, RELATIVELY speaking one side did offer more freedom, liberty, an…

> However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. Nuclear war? And in that 50/80 years, only one side has ever nuked a city full of civilians. Twice. > This remains true today with China. CPC apologists are all too happy to point out (factually correct) gaps in US integrity and freedom. "CPC apologists". Did w…

Essentially you're wrong because you're drawing a false equivalency between the US and CCP/Russia. Your argument is that because the US has done bad, made mistakes, etc... they are in the same grouping as CCP/Russia. Which is an un-nuanced argument that the OP explained was wrong.

Basically your argument is an un-nuanced "muh US is evil". Even though you can simply look at the countries aligned with the US and factually see that they are the freest, have the least corruption, and have the most open elections.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#233

Post by throw_this_one »

deanCommie wrote: post #139
simorley wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. Is this a shock to anyone? "Human rights and democracy" is the new imperial "white man's burden". We use it to justify invading, colonizing and stealing from others. When have we ever cared about human rights and democracy? I forget if it was chomsky or someone else who said that we've murdered m…

I 100% agree with everything you're saying. However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. In this fight, while the US was far more evil than anyone cared to admit at the time, and the USSR far less than the US propaganda would have you believe, RELATIVELY speaking one side did offer more freedom, liberty, an…

Well put. This is the basic argument against these CCP and authoritarian apologists. Most likely they are going by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" which is a simplistic thing to base your world view on.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#234

Post by throw_this_one »

Assange, Wikileaks, and Snowden. If these people did the same thing to Russia/Putin or the CCP, they would be gone without a trace right now. It's really sad, these false equivalencies gone wild.

Doing something bad or making a mistake doesn't make the actor bad. That's just an un-nuanced world view.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#235

Post by boomboomsubban »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #229
legolas2412 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only were his communication constantly monitored for years, already a breach of client attorney privilege, the US considered flagrant assassination as a potential way to handle him. Not sure how OP could be more clearer

Considered* Did they try? The US also "considers" invading Canada. Consideration means nothing. And the US monitors people suspected of crimes all of the time. I'm tired of hearing about hypothetical "unfair" trials. Once again, the alternative you guys seem to want is a world where people that you like can do whatever they want. You like Assange and because of his celebrity status no trial can be fair- very convenie…

>And the US monitors people suspected of crimes all of the time.

Even when they have a warrant allowing them to monitor a suspect, which they do not seem to have acquired here, those do not allow the breaking of attorney–client privilege.

My "alternative" is that the US obeys the limits placed on them, and conducts fair trials of alleged criminals.

And again, I don't like Assange. What I like is the right to a free press and a fair trial.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#236

Post by bllguo »

throw_this_one wrote: post #232
simorley wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. Nuclear war? And in that 50/80 years, only one side has ever nuked a city full of civilians. Twice. > This remains true today with China. CPC apologists are all too happy to point out (factually correct) gaps in US integrity and freedom. "CPC apologists". Did w…

Essentially you're wrong because you're drawing a false equivalency between the US and CCP/Russia. Your argument is that because the US has done bad, made mistakes, etc... they are in the same grouping as CCP/Russia. Which is an un-nuanced argument that the OP explained was wrong. Basically your argument is an un-nuanced "muh US is evil". Even though you can simply look at the countries aligned with the US and factua…

factually they are also the most violent and warmongering, and have caused the most global chaos, both in the past and the present.

the benefits of unrestricted freedoms and open elections have also never been as questionable as now, so you should not be surprised that others do not also believe that those are universally considered good.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#237

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #227
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the alternative? Don't make people you like stand trial?

The alternative is to let people stand trial when they've violated legitimate laws, in front of a jury of their peers. The Unconstitutional, Orwellian Espionage Act that Assange is accused of violating is a stain on the US "justice" system and an affront to everyone who believes in free speech and the Constitution.

Isn't it claimed that he assisted people who were committing cybercrimes? That's not journalism. If only there was a way to figure out the truth- a trial perhaps.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#238

Post by photochemsyn »

pvg wrote: post #135
photochemsyn wrote: post #62

The real reason they were so pissed off at Assange seems to be in two parts: 1) The Chelsea Manning State Department cables. The video was all the hype, but just dig through the 'SECRET' cables on Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. 2) Those Vault7 CIA leaks are incredibly embarrassing, it's like so closet cr…

Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. You can go to the cable archive and type 'human rights' in the search box and see this isn't remotely true. Whatever one might think of US diplomacy and its goals, the cables are mostly of historical interest and cause for mild embarrassment. They don't really show some diabolically clever empire c…

Ah, I did qualify that statement with the search term 'SECRET' (classification level box) on the CableGate archive.

Yes, there are unclassified and even classified cables discussing human rights initiatives - but I'm guessing 'SECRET' is what they really care a lot about, and that stuff in my experience of reading literally hundreds of cables (okay I was leaning more towards energy research) that's just not an issue anywhere I've seen. For example, Syria? It's all about forcing Assad to cut ties with Iran and get into the Saudi-Qatar gas pipeline deal. UAE? Huge arms deals. Ditto for Saudi Arabia. For grim laughs, look up Raytheon and Yemen.

It's really not very flattering, although the writers seem intelligent and well-informed.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#239

Post by photochemsyn »

marcinzm wrote: post #85
photochemsyn wrote: post #62

The real reason they were so pissed off at Assange seems to be in two parts: 1) The Chelsea Manning State Department cables. The video was all the hype, but just dig through the 'SECRET' cables on Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. 2) Those Vault7 CIA leaks are incredibly embarrassing, it's like so closet cr…

> That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. That just seems like standard for spy agencies along with a pretty mild black propaganda angle. Even books about WW2 propaganda cover the topic. I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been.

A false flag cyberattack - an act of war in the modern world, many say - is pretty far beyond what peacetime intelligence agencies have historically gotten up to.

I mean, if you left Russia fingerprints on, for example, a CIA-led cyberattack on a nuclear reactor, that could start a major war. It's pretty reckless in my opinion to even make such tools.

Re: Former U.S. officials describe details of the CIA’s proposals to abduct Assange

#240

Post by tcmart14 »

blitzar wrote: post #173
GordonS wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people saw how the sausage was made and decided they still liked sausage. I'm not sure that's really true. All of the stuff Snowden and Assange leaked was very much down-played by the popular media - it felt like it was very under-reported and even then with a fair bit of bias. If you ask some people about how they feel now, they'll say that it wouldn't affect them "because they haven't done anything wrong", o…

> Most people saw how the sausage was made and decided they still liked sausage. > I'm not sure that's really true. All of the stuff Snowden and Assange leaked was very much down-played by the popular media - it felt like it was very under-reported and even then with a fair bit of bias. It was not at all played down, especially not Snowden, it was rolling 24 hour news for weeks, they still try and drum up some drama…

I was rather young at the time so maybe I didnt capture all of the media coverage. But I remember the media coverage of Snowden was more of a 'where in the world is snowden' rather than actually about the content he published.
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