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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#231

Post by noahjk »

bassman9000 wrote: post #218

Except, it seems, USPS 600k+ employees https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-man... thus proving this is not about science, but political, e.g. to stop talking about the Afghan fiasco.

Not sure if you read the article you linked to.

> The USPS exemption was initially believed to allow postal workers to duck the private-sector mandate, too. But nearly four hours after that understanding was reported, the White House issued a clarification saying that postal workers will have a choice between getting vaccinated and getting tested once a week, just like workers at large companies.

“USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said.

He added: “That said, USPS is strongly encouraged to comply. Also, [the Labor Department’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration] will cover USPS through the [emergency temporary standards], meaning that postal workers will be subject to the vaccination or testing policy announced today”

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#232

Post by anonygler »

dwaltrip wrote: post #214
quotemstr wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely goo…

We don’t need to eliminate transmission for the vaccines to be useful. My understanding is that they do meaningfully reduce transmission, even for Delta. You are also missing another important factor. In addition to reducing transmission, the vaccines greatly reduce the chance of hospitalization, which together significantly reduces the peak load on the health system so that it continues to function well and serve no…

There are 2 separate issues. Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. Preventing hospitalization is a separate matter and not really worthy of a mandate. Banning alcohol and fast food will save far more lives, in that case.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#233

Post by kxyvr »

version_five wrote: post #98
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

I'm a libertarian and I think choices should be up to the individual, because it's never ok to have a political group decide for you what is good or bad. It's antithetical to western liberalism. My rant aside, I think there are better and worse ways to infringe on people's liberty when needed. And given the way the winds are blowing, it would be much better to enforce vaccination at the federal level, i.e. compel peo…

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA.

That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effective plan, the implications of not having a mandate seem particularly horrific.

All the same, I do agree with you that if there is to be a mandate, that it's best to come from the federal government to create a uniform set of guidelines. I also agree that the patchwork of rules has been a mess.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#234

Post by totony »

ZetaZero wrote: post #12
francis-io wrote: post #8

I feel awful for the people with religious or medical reasons they can't be vaccinated. I can't imagen having to potentially pick between a truly held religious belief and proving for a family.

From NYT: "Ms. Psaki said that there would be some disability and religious exemptions for some"

Crazy to me religion and normal beliefs are not put in the same bucket. Why would a religious belief hold more weight than a normal belief?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#235

Post by teeray »

kxyvr wrote: post #233
version_five wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a libertarian and I think choices should be up to the individual, because it's never ok to have a political group decide for you what is good or bad. It's antithetical to western liberalism. My rant aside, I think there are better and worse ways to infringe on people's liberty when needed. And given the way the winds are blowing, it would be much better to enforce vaccination at the federal level, i.e. compel peo…

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effec…

> should an emergency room be free to refuse care?

Let’s say instead of “unvaccinated” that they’re actually wildly radioactive and suffering radiation poisoning. Should we treat that person, or turn them away because they could irradiate the ER?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#236

Post by vlovich123 »

michaelt wrote: post #96
threatofrain wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country. What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.

Humans are not rational creatures. Our beliefs can override rationality & that's true regardless of how smart you think you are. That's why you have Christian Scientists being convicted for child abuse/neglect for not providing a reasonable standard of medical care ("reasonable" being defined as "commonly accepted behaviors in our society"). Similar issues around beliefs would apply around vaccines, especially with extremely high levels of mistrust of the opposite party AND a historic amount of anti vaxxers generally. Would Democrats be accepting the vaccine so quickly if the bulk of the rollout happened under Trump? I don't know but I certainly had misgivings that the Trump government was playing politics fast-tracking the vaccine that evaporated when Biden came to power for some reason. I probably would have still taken the vaccine, but is that because I'm being rational or because I'm anti anti-vaxxers?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#237

Post by angelzen »

standardUser wrote: post #176
angelzen wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, the ZeroCovid ship has sailed. Vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission (1). All vaccines appear to do is to (hopefully) dull the severity of the infection once you've got it. Plus now we have animal reservoirs, and no way to vaccinate those. Edit: (1) Obviously we should talk about the degree of infection and transmission reduced by vaccines, and not in black/white terms. I haven't seen conclusive da…

Please stop spreading disinformation. Vaccines have been shown in many, many studies to reduce the spread of COVID-19.

[Fair enough, reformulated for better nuance.]

Sadly, the ZeroCovid ship has sailed.

* Covid vaccines only partially prevent infection or transmission. To the best of my understanding even 100% vaccination cannot prevent outbreaks.

* We live in an 8bn people world + God know how many animal reservoirs. It is logistically impossible to vaccinate every living being susceptible of covid infection. We've got to live with endemic covid.

* Fortunately the toll on children and teens is very small, and the vaccines do work best in preventing severe cases across the entire population, which makes living with endemic covid a whole lot more palatable.

At some point we have to face the unavoidable. There will be variants, there will be outbreaks, hopefully the impact will be bearable.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-...

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-wi...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#238

Post by bradlys »

vlovich123 wrote: post #236
michaelt wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country. What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.

Humans are not rational creatures. Our beliefs can override rationality & that's true regardless of how smart you think you are. That's why you have Christian Scientists being convicted for child abuse/neglect for not providing a reasonable standard of medical care ("reasonable" being defined as "commonly accepted behaviors in our society"). Similar issues around beliefs would apply around vaccines, especially with e…

There is some just skepticism of anything that happens under Trump. The dude talked about injecting bleach into your veins. Come on.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#239

Post by amelius »

betterunix2 wrote: post #74
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

...that is why I could never be a libertarian. People have repeatedly proved themselves unwilling or unable to live up to the libertarian ideal of behaving "rationally."

Even rational actors can ruin things deeply. E.g. government intervention is necessary to have network-neutrality.
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