Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

tutanota.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 397 posts

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#231

Post by 8372049 »

xenophonf wrote: post #219
hammock wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no defense against a legal power that does not limit itself. Correction: there is no legal defense. There are other defenses, historically.

Don't be coy. You're talking about the violent overthrow of the government. And you know what? If you live in any one of the western liberal democracies, this response is bullshit and you know it. In a democracy, the government is _you_ and the _people around you_, and we have all kinds of legal defenses against wanna-be autocrats: - speeches - rallies - op-eds - letters - phone calls - commercials - campaign contrib…

This is true. Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook discusses this further and talks about how seizing power in most modern, western democracies is very hard.

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#232

Post by gballan »

WalterBright wrote: post #183
UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New Zealand's (as you describe it) "extreme lockdown" has worked. When dealing with a pandemic you are supposed to limit potential exposure, and their actions did that. As a result NZ has had one of the lowest infection rates in the world. Also, those actions let them "return to normal" quicker then anywhere else. It worked. Perhaps you feel that the mid-evil practice of nailing the doors and windows shut and posting…

If it's true that Covid is not going away, but will be endemic, it'll sweep through New Zealand one way or another.

Indeed, but timing is key: whether the sweep is before or after the population is substantially vaccinated.

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#233

Post by gorwell »

0xdeadb00f wrote: post #213
smsm42 wrote: post #178

Australia is turning itself into a prison state. Citizens are allowed to go outside for maximum one or two hours, total surveillance, unconstrained searches of the property... About the same set of rights as a supermax prison inmate has, it looks like.

The part about being "allowed to" go outside isn't true. Take it from me, I live here and am free to go wherever I please.

This is probably what they are referring to. Some areas are limiting outdoor time and fining people who are "outside without a reasonable excuse".

"From September 13, NSW residents that are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will be given new freedoms.

Residents of hotspots can leave home for an hour of recreation on top of their exercise hour, while people in other areas can meet five others outdoors."

https://twitter.com/9NewsSyd/status/1430707532134236163

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#234

Post by falcrist »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #65
cryptonector wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no defense against a legal power that does not limit itself. States almost-by-definition have total power should they wish to exercise it. Western states generally have limited their exercise of power, and they have structured themselves to make it difficult for one government to obtain and exercise total power. That is now changing.

I'm reading this book "You have the right to remain innocent" [1] And it brings up amazing cases where the system is definitely not limiting it's powers and it's leading to false convictions. Here's a youtube of more or less the book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FENubmZGj8 [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30532856-you-have-the-ri... EDIT: errm actually that YT video is actually a little scant on details.…

The content in the book you're talking about is probably better represented by Professor Duane's original viral video on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

I think he wrote that book in part because he was frustrated by the lack of nuance in his presentation and the fact that it sort of "went viral". 13 million views for a lecture about law is pretty astonishing.

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#235

Post by snarf21 »

soco wrote: post #52

In similar news the well-known direct democracy of Switzerland just voted a new rule giving police similar surveillance powers without judicial oversight. So it's obviously the people wishing to be better surveilled and we're the outliers here.

That's unfair. People are exhausted. The world is too complex. We have almost no control of anything. People just want to eat, sleep and spend time with their family. They don't have hours a day to get up to speed on the most complicated new tech law that will just be rubber stamped by people who are supposed to represent our interests for campaign dollars. Some of these laws get push back and trend hashtags for a couple of days. Then the powers that be just try again in 2 months. And again, and again. You know, because of the children......

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#236

Post by pmontra »

nix23 wrote: post #226
maerF0x0 wrote: post #23

Well, just added Australia to the list of places I'm never going. > The two Australian law enforcement bodies AFP and ACIC will soon have the power to modify, add, copy, or delete your data should you become a suspect in the investigation of a serious crime. How would one prove the bodies didnt add/modify incriminating items? in the US that would be nigh impossible to argue against as the system implicitly trusts pol…

>power to modify, add, copy, or delete your data Since when is it legal in any democracy that the police can temper (modify, add) or delete proof? That's just beyond my understanding.

Democratic != righteous, no matter we wish they coincide.

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#237

Post by 908B64B197 »

worker767424 wrote: post #109
Mikeb85 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in France people will protest. Places like Australia, NZ and Canada have far too much trust in the government...

Regarding Australia's limits on protest during the Sydney covid lockdown, one official basically said "people can exercise their freedom of speech other ways, like writing a letter to the newpaper or sending an angry email" (paraphrased). I think he seriously thought these circular-filed complaints carry the same weight as a protesters in front of government buildings.

> "people can exercise their freedom of speech other ways, like writing a letter to the newpaper or sending an angry email" (paraphrased).

That's what the founding fathers did, ironically. Didn't work either.

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#238

Post by maerF0x0 »

falcrist wrote: post #234
maerF0x0 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading this book "You have the right to remain innocent" [1] And it brings up amazing cases where the system is definitely not limiting it's powers and it's leading to false convictions. Here's a youtube of more or less the book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FENubmZGj8 [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30532856-you-have-the-ri... EDIT: errm actually that YT video is actually a little scant on details.…

The content in the book you're talking about is probably better represented by Professor Duane's original viral video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE I think he wrote that book in part because he was frustrated by the lack of nuance in his presentation and the fact that it sort of "went viral". 13 million views for a lecture about law is pretty astonishing.

Yes, but iirc the best advice at the time of the viral video was invoke the 5th, but it has since evolved to do not invoke the 5th. Insist on your 6th .

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#239

Post by verve_rat »

simplify wrote: post #193
UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New Zealand's (as you describe it) "extreme lockdown" has worked. When dealing with a pandemic you are supposed to limit potential exposure, and their actions did that. As a result NZ has had one of the lowest infection rates in the world. Also, those actions let them "return to normal" quicker then anywhere else. It worked. Perhaps you feel that the mid-evil practice of nailing the doors and windows shut and posting…

Can you explain how people were only "inconvenienced"? Is everyone in New Zealand a white collar worker? I don't know anything about it, I take it you live there?

They are not dead.

Sure, for people that can't work from home it has been harder. But Government support has been set at a level well above the unemployment benefit. That is paid to employers to pass on to staff so the employment relationship is continued with strong encouragement to pay at least 80% of the employees normally wages. While it has been hard for some it hasn't been impossible. There have been no reports of abnormal bankruptcy levels (business or personal) or mortgagee sales.

Some people have used the fact that the support is higher than the unemployment benefit as evidence that benefits are set too low.

In fact, some lower paid workers look forward to a lockdown as a 'covid holiday'. That has pissed a few people off.

But all of that is way, way better than asking why are thousands of Kiwis dead? Did my [Nan|Mum|Brother|best friend|insert other person you care about] really need to die, 'for the economy'?

Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours

#240

Post by 908B64B197 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #91
eplanit wrote: post #68

There and New Zealand both. The responses (extreme lockdown) of both countries to Covid has been nothing short of insane.

Apparently, you're not allowed to go beyond 5km radius of your house. Can someone in Australia confirm the details of the lockdown? Virus is here to stay for many years, if not decades. We're never going to eliminate it. It is time we push back on draconian measures in the name of covid. Unrelated but I can't even go to bathroom in SF city because every restaurant, convenience store, gas station, etc. have an excuse…

> I was fine with Gov-mandated measures last year when we didn't have vaccines. But, I am turning against my own self from last year.

Several zip codes in the Bay are at what... 98% vaccination rate? I still don't get how the "much better" governments of Australia and New Zealands, held as examples through the pandemic, couldn't match the vaccine rollout of... the Trump Administration.

Post reply on HN