How The Hell Is This My Fault? • Hacker News Board

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#231

Post by jamesteow » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #165

jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

Air BNB is specifically not an insurrance company. They technically have no obligation to pay in the case of any damage. For them, the best possible course of action was to bury this case. However, now that it's come into the public light they're torn between (a) trying to re-iterate to everyone that they do not have liability and (b) trying to look good by doing the "Right Thing". As a business owner, I feel for the…

Absolutely.

I'm not one of those who feels that Airbnb has to compensate her for everything or even anything.

BUT, I do think Airbnb needed to do more to inform potential users about the risks involved. No, I'm not talking about a microsite or bolding fine print on their terms of use... I'm talking about messaging along the process.

As I said in another part of this thread, Craigslist does a good job of messaging on the search results page and on the actual posts itself by displaying links on how to avoid being scammed.

On an eBay product page, there is a large buyers protection module and additional text near the product description like "Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing."

While some people aren't going to read them, they at least help set expectations.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#232

Post by pbreit » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:07 PM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #185

chrischen wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how would they help this person? Reimburse her? AirBnb is technically not liable for those damages right? So how much do they give her? If it's too little it might be insulting. Too much and people would still complain about irreparable emotional damage. They said they're trying to help catch the perpetrator right? In my eyes that's all they really can do and the only thing that matters. The damages are primarily…

> AirBnb is technically not liable for those damages right? Totally irrelevant. This has obviously gone beyond "technical liability".

Why the downvote?

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#233

Post by Ulankgz » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:34 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

>It's apparent from the latest newspaper stories that AirBnb is now reacting in a cover-it-up fashion - they're trying to offer the woman a sum of money with the condition that she shut up. That's fine, I guess - very corporate of them.

In this situation, when the scandal has matured it's too late to cover up. If Airbnb guys believe in their rightness, they are obliged to defend it openly and strongly in all media. Then they have a chance to get unscrewed. And if these guys will continue to fuss and to get nervous it will only make things worse. The main thing is not to make more stupid and unnecessary mistakes

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#234

Post by bugsy » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:49 PM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #165

jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

Air BNB is specifically not an insurrance company. They technically have no obligation to pay in the case of any damage. For them, the best possible course of action was to bury this case. However, now that it's come into the public light they're torn between (a) trying to re-iterate to everyone that they do not have liability and (b) trying to look good by doing the "Right Thing". As a business owner, I feel for the…

I think there is a pretty good legal argument that they had a duty to know the actual identity of each party. They failed to do that. When her house was trashed the first thing she did is ask them the real identity of the person who rented and then they revealed they had absolutely no idea whatsoever. This is a huge surprise to me, it was to her, and it is to everybody that isn't trying to defend this company's massive incompetence. The fact that they don't know the identity of the parties is openly misrepresented by their materials which indicate that the transaction is safe and intentionally try to distract the customer with jokes about the difficulty of moving grand pianos, which are an item few people would have in their house anyway.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#235

Post by kragen » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:49 PM UTC

breck wrote: post #197

jellicle wrote: post #154

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

> it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. No. Some terrible human being who should be in jail is at fault here. Airbnb and YC are all run by great people. Responding to a crisis like this is never easy. Responding to your first crisis like this is hardest of all. I wouldn't blame Michael Arrington at all, either. I think he's done a great job at reporting this. But it's not his f…

> Also, in regard to the so called "coverup", it's totally natural when someone says bad things about you on the internet to ask them to take them down. That's not a "cover up". That's "being human". Imagine if someone posted a diatribe against one of your children. As a parent, wouldn't you want to get that taken down? Airbnb is these guys' baby.

It's totally natural, but it's dishonest. It's destroying the historical record. It's depriving the public of their opportunity to make up their own minds about what the truth is. Cheating and stealing and killing are part of "being human", too, but that doesn't mean we have to condone them.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#236

Post by rmason » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:51 PM UTC

I remember seeing Jack Welch being interviewed once about the press. He said for successful people it's a cycle - they're either building you up or tearing you down. If AirBnB wasn't so successful their problem wouldn't be news.

If he hasn't done it already you will see PG bring in a top PR person who is experienced in handling a crisis. Not just to get AirBnB out of trouble but to be a resource for future YC companies in handling episodes of this sort. Quite frankly I am shocked their VC's aren't helping them out this way.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#237

Post by djloche » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:54 PM UTC

The key problem is that MA is reading 'we're not legally liable' as 'we're not going to help her'.

There is a huge difference between the two. Companies go out of their way to fix issues where they have no legal obligation to do so. However, they can still claim that they have no legal obligation with the offended parties to do so, they're just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts (and reputation of the business going forward).

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#238

Post by kragen » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:55 PM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #234

true_religion wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air BNB is specifically not an insurrance company. They technically have no obligation to pay in the case of any damage. For them, the best possible course of action was to bury this case. However, now that it's come into the public light they're torn between (a) trying to re-iterate to everyone that they do not have liability and (b) trying to look good by doing the "Right Thing". As a business owner, I feel for the…

I think there is a pretty good legal argument that they had a duty to know the actual identity of each party. They failed to do that. When her house was trashed the first thing she did is ask them the real identity of the person who rented and then they revealed they had absolutely no idea whatsoever. This is a huge surprise to me, it was to her, and it is to everybody that isn't trying to defend this company's massi…

> I think there is a pretty good legal argument that they had a duty to know the actual identity of each party.

I think that's absurd. Would you say the same thing about Craigslist?

> The fact that they don't know the identity of the parties is openly misrepresented by their materials which indicate that the transaction is safe and intentionally try to distract the customer with jokes about the difficulty of moving grand pianos

That's not how I read it at all. They don't claim to know the identity of the other party; they claim that the transaction is safe. Which, it appears, it is. If they've had 2 million nights booked, that's maybe a quarter of a million bookings, and (they claim) this is the first time anything like this has happened. That's pretty safe!

I read the joke about the grand piano as an admission that the only thing that's preventing people from using Airbnb to rob people is that robbing people is generally hard and unprofitable.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#239

Post by bugsy » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:56 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #91

Everybody calm down please. EJ is real, she's a real person, it really did happen, just in case anybody was still wondering about that. I've passed her contact info to PG and him being the smart man that he is I'm pretty sure that he can come up with a solution that will satisfy everybody and will allow the victim to move on and get AirBNB past this crisis. Any words to the effect that AirBNB is 'setting precedent' a…

> I've passed her contact info to PG and him being the smart man that he

Wow, that is some crazy talk. Given that PG sees her as the enemy and his friends at Airbnb the good guys beyond reproach he should not be contacting her. He has absolutely no business doing so. Also, unless she asked for it, it was a massive privacy violation to release that information to a third party. Outrageous. What is he going to do now? Hire thugs to intimidate her? His only connection here is he is a freaking major investor/sponsor of the company that has displayed massive negligence, cover up, and intimidation of the victim. Nothing whatsoever good or proper can come from you, whoever you are, violating her privacy in this way.

As far as the rest of your screed where you suggest she needs to be on trial and provide proof of damage with photos etc, wow, what a psycho douchbag move. Yes, you are a psycho. Please sue me for libel, I would love to go over this claim in court and call attention to your post above in the months leading up to the case. So Jacques, are you the lawyer or PR rep for bnb, or are you an investor? Why do you have her private contact information? Your position that you have explained here is utterly deplorable and insane and you are revealing yourself to be a dangerous person and menace to society.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#240

Post by pg » Sat, Jul 30, 2011, 7:58 PM UTC

kyro wrote: post #95

HN has been pretty disgusting the last few days: the level of schadenfreude here has hit ridiculous new highs. It seems that every time a story breaks about a successful company, a bunch of envious and disgruntled people come out of the woodwork and jump onto the bandwagon headed straight for the founders' heads. A community of seemingly intelligent and rational individuals turns into the most rabid, emotionally-char…

This is the most intelligent comment I've seen about this whole business. The phenomenon isn't limited to YC companies-- we saw it in e.g. the reaction to Zuckerberg (at 20 or whatever) calling users "dumb fucks" and to Biz and Ev (jokingly) asking if they could cut in the food line at Facebook-- but the problem is at its worst with YC companies because we have to scale back on moderation.

When users work themselves into a frenzy over an ordinary issue and upvote a stream of mostly duplicate stories about it, we can just kill most of them. But with controversies about YC companies we can't or we'll get accused of censorship.

I don't know if there's a solution. We may just have to resign ourselves to the collective IQ of HN decreasing for a few days whenever there is a controversy involving a YC company.