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Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

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Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "precise agreed upon definition" is not mapped to a precise agreed upon sequence of words. I find it hard to think of any technical terms which have a fixed, well-specified phrase for the definition, much less ones which, if re-used, don't require attribution. I mean, there are definitional terms like "one meter is the length of the path traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299 792 458 of a second" or "the discrimi…

> (I agree that the creativity level is quite low for some of these, and I believe several people might come up with the same description, but that's a different issue than re-using someone else's definition without attribution.) It's funny because I actually find your exemples to be supporting my point more than yours. All of these sentences are translation in plain English of the absolutly perfectly defined and com…

Yes, I deliberately chose something that just above trivially simple to show that there was diversity of expression even at that level.

That is, even given a technical term with a precise agreed upon definition, the description of that term (eg, in English) does not have a precise agreed-upon form.

Incorrect use of the latter may imply plagiarism, and this thread appears to concern that aspect.

Most definitions are not as simple as "cosine similarity".

Your statement, if true, would mean that most dictionaries would use exactly the same words to describe a given, well-specified scientific concept, yes?

What's "Frame dragging" in general relativity?

Wikipedia: the effect on spacetime caused by a rotating mass ... Frame-dragging is an effect on spacetime, predicted by Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity, that is due to non-static stationary distributions of mass–energy.

doi:10.1126/science.aax7007 : the mass-energy current of a rotating body induces a gravitomagnetic field, so-called because it has formal similarities with the magnetic field generated by an electric current (1). This gravitomagnetic interaction drags inertial frames in the vicinity of a rotating mass. (quoting from the preprint at https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.11405 ).

einstein-online.info: a mass’s rotation influences the motion of objects in its neighbourhood

doi:10.3390/universe7020027 : The term "frame-dragging" usually refers to the influence of a rotating massive body on a gyroscope by producing vorticity in the congruence of world-lines of observers outside the rotating object.

doi:10.1142/9789812564818_0002 : A major consequence of General Relativity and related theories of gravity is that all inertial frames are local. These local frames are accelerated, warped and stretched, and rotated with respect to each other due to the surrounding mass-energy distributions. While only their relative rotations are typically called frame dragging effects, this phrase describes a broader range of gravitational influences on inertia.

Very different definitions, because it's hard to express that concept in English. And I think re-using a few of the more extensive definitions, without attribution, is a minor form of plagiarism. (Reusing any follow-up explanation is, as you've agreed, definitely plagiarism.)

You might recall that atrettel wrote "the authors were misusing a particular technical term".

If you dig in to the papers on frame dragging, you'll note similar complaints, like https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0509025 : "Many accounts of these experiments have been in terms of frame-dragging. We point out that this terminology has given rise to much confusion and that a better description is in terms of spin-orbit and spin-spin effects."

> I would find that laughable

So would I, which is why I commented 'that's a different issue than re-using someone else's definition without attribution'.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#232
post #224
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this list, it almost seems like these were created by looking up each individual word in a thesaurus, which of course destroys much of the meaning. E.g., Signal -> flag To -> to Noise -> clamor …and… Data -> information Warehouse -> stockroom This would be a lot easier than running through multiple translation steps (as proposed elsewhere here).

This exact process has been used by spammers for a long time now. It's called spinning, and it is basically the kind of thesaurus replacement you're describing here. When I read the OP, my impression was that these authors were running plagiarized portions of their articles through a similar kind of spinner.

NB: The paper itself describing this problem talks about the use of spinbot.com at the end.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#233
post #103

I often wonder while reading an academic paper how the writing could be as hopelessly bad as it is. This type of manipulation and plagiarism may be partially to blame, but the academic writing style has also gone completely off the rails to the point that half the journal articles being published today read as if written by some kind of paper writing AI robot even when I am quite certain that that isn't the case. And…

I am sure this was not your intention or meaning, but please be aware that it is virtually impossible for a non-native speaker to write perfect English. English is a language you have to intuit. In contrast to other languages, it has very few fixed rules. Writing elegantly in English is most certainly an art form. Of course, writing good science is hard enough for native speakers. It is very difficult for the vast ma…

The issue here is not bad English in the sense you'd expect from a learner or someone who just isn't fluent. Nobody minds that, although you say not everyone can afford professional editing services: that's what journals are theoretically for!

The actual problem here is fluent English that is written in a totally bizarre style only found in academic papers. I've found that academic-ese is less of a problem in good computer science papers (like the one this article is about), but it crops up in some fields a lot. A trivial and not very important example is the way minor things are routinely described as "novel", a word you rarely find in everyday English, but in the research literature everything is "novel".

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Master's thesis I don't doubt this at all, and I have no doubt that GPT-3 with a bit of human editing can spit out something better than the lower third of masters students at corn row colleges. Masters degrees are cash cows, which is why no one in unregulated industries cares about them. People in regulated/unionized industries also don't actually care; even educators, who at least nominally see intrinsic value in…

> Masters degrees are cash cows, which is why no one in unregulated industries cares about them. People in regulated/unionized industries also don't actually care; even educators, who at least nominally see intrinsic value in education, go to borderline diploma mills to get that union-mandated raise at minimal effort. I don't mean this rudely, but it is attitudes like this which cause the CS interviewing process to b…

But that happens because of the common experience interviewers have of interviewing someone with a PhD or (even worse) various corporate credentials and discovering they can't actually create and compile a program that loops over an array.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#235
post #31

What's the point of this? To waste the time of foreign scientists? Would we call this science warfare?

The people in question are paid for writing papers, not the discovery of true knowledge. The root cause is government funding of research, hence this specific paper talking at the end about the "publish or perish" culture. Governments give researchers money to write papers but then don't read the results, only check that it got published somewhere, meaning anyone who can game the publication system has in effect a license to print (taxpayer) money.

That's why there's no real fix for this problem beyond defunding government science budgets. Any quick hacks you can come up with like running GPT-2 detectors over science papers are just treating the symptoms of the problem, not the cause. The root cause is that when governments eliminate the free market by subsidizing research they lose reliable signals of genuine utility that come from polling the market, so they have to use proxies that boil down to quantity-over-quality. The fix is for them to stop subsidizing research. The people who apply research to create new technologies aren't reading it anyway.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#236
I was reading an article on Nature and noticed their definition of "woman" didn't make sense. Tortured phrases isn't confined to plagiarism avoidance.

> Unfortunately, fibroids are just one of many understudied aspects of health in people assigned female at birth. (This includes cisgender women, transgender men and some non-binary and intersex people; the term ‘women’ in the rest of this editorial refers to cis women.)

The article says it only refers to "Cis women" (presumably "cisgender women"), however the article continues to talk about rugby and brains, in which case the word "woman" would not only refer to "cisgender" women, but also to those people who identify as non-binary or transgender men, as surgery and hormone therapy (if that is undertaken by the individual) won't change brain axons, or the person's physical stature.

The article then talks about "male animals", not "animals assigned male at birth". There's no explanation given why animals are not similarly "assigned" a sex.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02085-6

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#237
post #103

I often wonder while reading an academic paper how the writing could be as hopelessly bad as it is. This type of manipulation and plagiarism may be partially to blame, but the academic writing style has also gone completely off the rails to the point that half the journal articles being published today read as if written by some kind of paper writing AI robot even when I am quite certain that that isn't the case. And…

I am sure this was not your intention or meaning, but please be aware that it is virtually impossible for a non-native speaker to write perfect English. English is a language you have to intuit. In contrast to other languages, it has very few fixed rules. Writing elegantly in English is most certainly an art form. Of course, writing good science is hard enough for native speakers. It is very difficult for the vast ma…

> it is virtually impossible for a non-native speaker to write perfect English. English is a language you have to intuit. In contrast to other languages, it has very few fixed rules. Writing elegantly in English is most certainly an art form.

Learning to write well in any language is difficult. English is not exceptional as a language. Its influence in economic activity is what gives it prevalance.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#238
post #103

I often wonder while reading an academic paper how the writing could be as hopelessly bad as it is. This type of manipulation and plagiarism may be partially to blame, but the academic writing style has also gone completely off the rails to the point that half the journal articles being published today read as if written by some kind of paper writing AI robot even when I am quite certain that that isn't the case. And…

I am sure this was not your intention or meaning, but please be aware that it is virtually impossible for a non-native speaker to write perfect English. English is a language you have to intuit. In contrast to other languages, it has very few fixed rules. Writing elegantly in English is most certainly an art form. Of course, writing good science is hard enough for native speakers. It is very difficult for the vast ma…

Oh that is certainly not true. English is a fuzzy merchant pidgin but that's precisely what makes it almost trivial to learn, plus the CIA in it's infinite wisdom has seen it fit to encourage production of deluge of entertainment media that make immersing oneself in English content easier than any other language.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I did not suggest the definition and explanation as content for them to use. I was trying to explain a concept that they discussed incorrectly multiple times in the paper. It is an advanced concept that might not even appear in graduate-level courses on the subject, so I can understand why they did not understand it fully. That said, I did not give them permission to copy my words there. If there are any particul…

> What the authors should have done was ... In the absence of an explicit directive or request from you, given that the authors are from a different culture, how do you expect them to know what was required by them? I don't mean to be snarky or accusative. Your comment was thoughtful, articulate and detailed, which tells me you are a sophisticated communicator.

My understanding is that something like the following happened:

1. authors submit a paper with expository sections about (eg) some materials being flammable and others inflammable

2. reviewer tries to explain that they have incorrectly understood the meaning of the terms, explains the meaning carefully and maybe suggests the terms they might mean.

3. Authors copy in the explanation and maybe replace incorrect usages with weird tortured phrases

4. Rejection

Obviously this description reads a little bit silly and things were probably more nuanced in practice. I think I’m probably also being uncharitable towards the authors in the example.

Re: Tortured phrases: A dubious writing style emerging in science

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I agree that the creativity level is quite low for some of these, and I believe several people might come up with the same description, but that's a different issue than re-using someone else's definition without attribution.) It's funny because I actually find your exemples to be supporting my point more than yours. All of these sentences are translation in plain English of the absolutly perfectly defined and com…

Yes, I deliberately chose something that just above trivially simple to show that there was diversity of expression even at that level. That is, even given a technical term with a precise agreed upon definition, the description of that term (eg, in English) does not have a precise agreed-upon form. Incorrect use of the latter may imply plagiarism, and this thread appears to concern that aspect. Most definitions are n…

> Your statement, if true, would mean that most dictionaries would use exactly the same words to describe a given, well-specified scientific concept, yes?

No, it definitely doesn't unless you significantly extend what I said in a very uncharitable way to reach that point.

> Most definitions are not as simple as "cosine similarity".

But plenty are. As I said previously, you are going to be hard pressed to constate plagiarism on pure definitions unless you go towards extensive paragraph long ones which are more akin to explanations than what I would refer to as a definition as you did in the comment I am replying to. Actually, if you reread what you just wrote, you are yourself using the world explanation and definitely agree that that can be plagiarised as could very unorthodox and original forms of definition.

But when I read definition, what comes to my mind is akin to the cosine similarity example where even publications reuse mostly the same sentences while applying minor modifications to the subjects or adding an adverb. Thus me pondering the close proximity of the words definition and plagiarism in the original comment until I realized the whole thing was actually about an explanation triggering my reply to someone sharing my initial puzzlement.

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