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Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

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Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#231
post #223
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree - during undergrad, I spent a few years studying neuroscience, and I was very let down by my first ML/AI course. Compared to what I had learned about the brain, what we called an "ANN" just seemed like such a silly toy. The more you learn about neurobiology, the more apparent it is that there are so many levels of computation going on - everything from dendritic structure, to cellular metabolism, to epig…

I think most of the complexity of biology is accidental, not essential. Eg. why don’t we have a normal abstraction for sending signals? Instead, we have like 10s of slightly different ones with different failings each, but each having many repetitive machinery leading to inefficient “spaghetti code”. And while our brain is objectively very impressive, I don’t see how our complex abilities are anything but emerging fe…

Yes and no - the brain is also incredibly parsimonious with respect to how little resources it uses to achieve the information processing power it has. If you could make a computer which could compete in terms of utility, energy usage, and size, you'd be a billionaire in no time.

It's probably true that you could imagine a "perfectly designed" brain which could perform better on some tasks with less complexity, but I think it's also true that there's been a lot of selection pressure towards increased intelligence, so this is probably fairly well optimized.

> why don’t we have a normal abstraction for sending signals? Instead, we have like 10s of slightly different ones with different failings each, but each having many repetitive machinery leading to inefficient “spaghetti code”.

What do you mean exactly by this? Like different neurotransmitter systems? Because I think it's actually quite elegant how the properties of different neurohormones lead to different processing modalities. It's like we have purpose-built hardware on the scale of individual proteins specialized for different purposes. I'm not so sure a more homogenized process for neural signaling would be an improvement.

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#232
> Machine learning is theory-free

This is backwards: Theory is machine-learning free, because we havent begun to systematically analyze the machine learning boxes to figure out where the theory arises out of it. If our brain can do it, then we can do it with the machine learning systems, but the relevant field is very underdeveloped. We still call ANN systems "black boxes" but eventually we 'll have to open them and start naming the parts inside. Much like how thermodynamics arise from statistical mechanics, theory will arise from connectionist dynamics

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#233
post #157

What a confused and muddled post, trying to touch on psychology, philosophy, and mathematics, and missing the mark on basically all three. I'm quite bearish on AI/ML, but calling it a "parlor trick" is like calling modern computers a parlor trick. I mean, at the end of the day, they're just very fast abacuses, right? Let's face it: what ML has brought to the forefront -- from self-landing airplanes to self-driving ca…

I liked the post. It is clearly aimed at people who think that we are close to achieving AI and that AI "knows best".

It might be obvious for most people here on HN that we are very far away from true artificial intelligence, but most normal people aren’t and the marketing bullshit around calling statistical models "artificial intelligence" paints the wrong picture. This article shows why.

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#234
post #231
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most of the complexity of biology is accidental, not essential. Eg. why don’t we have a normal abstraction for sending signals? Instead, we have like 10s of slightly different ones with different failings each, but each having many repetitive machinery leading to inefficient “spaghetti code”. And while our brain is objectively very impressive, I don’t see how our complex abilities are anything but emerging fe…

Yes and no - the brain is also incredibly parsimonious with respect to how little resources it uses to achieve the information processing power it has. If you could make a computer which could compete in terms of utility, energy usage, and size, you'd be a billionaire in no time. It's probably true that you could imagine a "perfectly designed" brain which could perform better on some tasks with less complexity, but I…

John von Neumann wrote an essay on the topic titled The computer and the brain, which is quite a good comparison between the two types of systems, even though knowledge of the two was pretty primitive at the time. The basic idea is that computers are multiple orders of magnitude faster at serial calculations, but brains offset this difference by the sheer number of “dumb” processing units, with insane number of interconnections. Also, I don’t think that comparing the training of a neural network to the brain is fair from an energy usage point of view - compare the usage of the final NN with it.

As for how optimized is the human brain, well good question. I think not even a single biological cell is close to efficient, at most it is at a local minima. The reason is perhaps that “worse is better” in terms of novel functionality. But I don’t think there was a big evolutionary pressure on sufficient intelligence once it emerged - it is sort of a first past the post wins all.

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#235
post #16

> I am an AI skeptic. I am baffled by anyone who isn’t. I don’t see any path from continuous improvements to the (admittedly impressive) ‘machine learning’ field that leads to a general AI - I share the skepticism towards any progress towards 'general AI' - I don't think that we're remotely close or even on the right path in any way. - That doesn't make me a skeptic towards the current state of machine learning thoug…

There's good reason to be skeptical of AI as it is. Here's a couple of reasons Racial bias in facial recognition: "Error rates up to 34% higher on dark-skinned women than for lighter-skinned males. "Default camera settings are often not optimized to capture darker skin tones, resulting in lower-quality database images of Black Americans" https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2020/racial-discriminatio... Chicago’s “Heat…

Isn’t that just human bias seeping through into the data set, so of course the neural net trained on that will show similar biases. The problem here is the human element.

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#236
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

self-driving cars are available to consumers now. Search for FSD on youtube and see all the consumers using their self driving cars. Or, watch the latest Veritasium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjztvddhZmI

It’s as much FSD as my robot vacuum not hitting the wall… These are just overhyped drive assist tools that market themselves immorally as something they aren’t.

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Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#237
post #234
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no - the brain is also incredibly parsimonious with respect to how little resources it uses to achieve the information processing power it has. If you could make a computer which could compete in terms of utility, energy usage, and size, you'd be a billionaire in no time. It's probably true that you could imagine a "perfectly designed" brain which could perform better on some tasks with less complexity, but I…

John von Neumann wrote an essay on the topic titled The computer and the brain, which is quite a good comparison between the two types of systems, even though knowledge of the two was pretty primitive at the time. The basic idea is that computers are multiple orders of magnitude faster at serial calculations, but brains offset this difference by the sheer number of “dumb” processing units, with insane number of inter…

> John von Neumann wrote an essay on the topic titled The computer and the brain

I have to be honest, I would take any such comparison from the 1950's with a huge pinch of salt. I think perceptions about how "dumb" an individual neuron is as a processing unit have shifted quite a bit since then.

> Also, I don’t think that comparing the training of a neural network to the brain is fair from an energy usage point of view - compare the usage of the final NN with it.

I'm not considering this in terms of the training efficiency, I'm looking at it in terms of the ratio between operational utility and energy used. There's no trained ANN with anything remotely close to the overall utility of the human brain at any scale, let alone one that weighs 3lbs, fits into a human skull and runs on 20 Watts of power.

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#238
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

self-driving cars are available to consumers now. Search for FSD on youtube and see all the consumers using their self driving cars. Or, watch the latest Veritasium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjztvddhZmI

And yet all of them force you to keep your eyes on the road at all times or you can die. Can you honestly call that FSD?

[deleted]

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#239
post #16

> I am an AI skeptic. I am baffled by anyone who isn’t. I don’t see any path from continuous improvements to the (admittedly impressive) ‘machine learning’ field that leads to a general AI - I share the skepticism towards any progress towards 'general AI' - I don't think that we're remotely close or even on the right path in any way. - That doesn't make me a skeptic towards the current state of machine learning thoug…

> I share the skepticism towards any progress towards 'general AI' - I don't think that we're remotely close or even on the right path in any way.

I actually think that AGI is deceptively simple. I don't have a proof, but I have a (rather embryonic, frankly) theory of how is it gonna work.

I believe AGI is an analogue of third Futamura projection, but for (reinforcement) learners and not compilers.

So the first level is you have problem and a learner, and you teach learner to solve the problem. The representation of the problem is implicit in the learner.

The second level is that you have a language, which can describe the problem and its solution, and a (2nd level) learner, and you teach the 2nd level learner to create (1st level) solvers of the problem based on the problem description language. The ability to interpret the problem description language is implicit in the 2nd level learner.

The third level is, you have a general description language that is capable of describing any problem description language, and you teach the 3rd level learner to take a description of the problem description language, and produce 2nd level learners that can use this language to solve problems created in it.

Now, just like in Futamura projections, this is where it stops. You have a "generally intelligent" creature on the 3rd level. You can talk to them on level of how to effectively describe or solve problems (create a specialized language for it) and they will come all the way down with the way to attack (solve) them.

In humans, the 3rd level, general intelligence (AKA "sentience"), evolved eventually from the 2nd level, and it was a creation of the general internal language (which probably co-evolved to be shared). The 2nd level is an internal representation of the world that can be manipulated, but only ever refer to the external world, not itself, so it allows creatures to make conscious plans, but lack the ability to reflect on the planning (and also learning) process itself. The "bicameral mind" is a theory how we acquired 3rd level from the 2nd, and the 3rd level is why "we are strange loops".

Anway, the problem is, the higher you go up the chain, the harder it becomes to create the learner, it's a lot more general problem. But I think the ladder must be, and should be, climbed. I believe that Deepmind (and RL research) has solved the 1st level, is now working on the 2nd level, but they already somewhat dimly see the 3rd level.

Re: Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results (2020)

#240
post #237
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John von Neumann wrote an essay on the topic titled The computer and the brain, which is quite a good comparison between the two types of systems, even though knowledge of the two was pretty primitive at the time. The basic idea is that computers are multiple orders of magnitude faster at serial calculations, but brains offset this difference by the sheer number of “dumb” processing units, with insane number of inter…

> John von Neumann wrote an essay on the topic titled The computer and the brain I have to be honest, I would take any such comparison from the 1950's with a huge pinch of salt. I think perceptions about how "dumb" an individual neuron is as a processing unit have shifted quite a bit since then. > Also, I don’t think that comparing the training of a neural network to the brain is fair from an energy usage point of vi…

I only mentioned that essay because I think the fundamental vision of it is still correct — in serial computations silicone beats “meat” hands down. And that is in both power efficiency and performance.

The fundamental difference between our current approach and biological brains is just as much a hardware one as it is theoretical. CPUs and GPUs are simply not best fit for this sort of usage — a “core” of them is way too powerful for what a single neuron can do (even with the more correct belief that they are not as dumb as we first thought), even if they can calculate multiple ones simultaneously. I’m not sure of specifics but couldn’t we print a pre-trained NN to a circuit that could match/beat a simple biological neural network in both speed and power efficiency? Cells are inefficient.

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