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Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

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Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#231
post #228
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is talking about hello world programs except you Oh, they're not? When the person you replied to wrote, "It’s far easier to write a minimal program on a TI calculator", what did you understand that to mean? Reading back the thread, it's clear that not only is hello world in scope, minimal programs are the only sort of program that anyone who isn't you even mentioned. What this is is a bizarre situation where…

Is hello world’ a minimal program? Yes Are all minimal programs ‘hello world’? No. Hello world is a straw man introduced by you - not the commenter I was relying to. As I pointed out, even if we consider hello world, the proposition is still not true - it’s not easier on a TI-89. So what do we have in summary? You spoiled the discussion by introducing personal attacks, your argument is a straw man, and even the straw…

You made several falsifiable claims that don't hold up, and you handled this by (a) editing your comment in a way that materially changed those claims (removed them and then in their place moved forward with a different argument that is necessarily at odds with what you originally wrote and removed), and (b) in the case of your most recent comment (when it was too late to edit the earlier), you ignored the straightforward questions put to you that, if answered, would refute concretely things you claimed about who said what when—an already ridiculous change of subject even more doomed than the original unnecessarily adversarial argument about the barriers that exist to write a program.

It's clear at this point that you don't actually stand behind anything—you are not committed to any actual position, or facts; you are only committed to the act of arguing. If there was any doubt about whether you were here to pick a fight, that has been erased. There is no reason to believe that you're responding in good faith, and there is no way to justify engaging with you further.

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#232
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting theory. But it cannot explain a few things. One of which is why children never have accents, and adult non-native speakers do. Another is that children do not need lessons to learn a language, and adults always do.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say by "children never have accents", but children do have accents, both the accent of whatever locality in which they live, as well as their own accents from not learning the language precisely. My 3-yr-ld son pronounces all words end in an "-ar-" sound of some kind as "-aiee-". He wanted to play "cards" and it came out "cai-eeds". There are other, similar foibles in the lang…

1. Accents are evidence that the speaker did not fully acquire the phonology of the language. A French native speaker will speak English with a French accent because they haven't acquired the full English phonological inventory. Children who learn a language don't have this problem.

2. Children will learn colors and shapes just fine without explicit instruction. They do it all the time. In the pre-developed world, children didn't get taught how to speak. There were no flash cards or toys for learning numbers. They just learned by observing.

3. Letters is something else. The orthography of a language -- learning how to write it -- is a different beast from learning how to speak it. Education is necessary here. So we agree about that, for sure. No one will passively acquire how to write.

4. Children make errors in production all the time. As they learn a language they make generalizations -- generalizations that actually make sense, like "mines" -- but which are considered "wrong" by adult speakers. They'll correct themselves over time without instruction.

You might want to check out reading Steven Pinker's "The Language Instinct," it has a lot of ideas and research that might be new to you.

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#233

That "just a mobile phone" is a computer in small form factor and possibly more powerful than computers two decades ago. Especially on Android devices where you can run chrooted a full GNU/Linux environment, the only difficulty (but not a barrier) smartphones have for being used productively are the small display screens and the lack of keyboard.

Yeah I don't think anyone is under the impression that any smart phone is not powerful enough to do this, but have you actually tried development on a phone? Even with a keyboard this is masochistic.

But many seem to think that smartphone implies being limited to mobile apps to do work which fortunately on Android isn't the case. Tried to see if it's possible but no, I haven't used it to build something substantial. I didn't mind that much the small display as the lack of keyboard. A phone with slide out keyboard will probably be a fine choice for this usage.

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#234
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say by "children never have accents", but children do have accents, both the accent of whatever locality in which they live, as well as their own accents from not learning the language precisely. My 3-yr-ld son pronounces all words end in an "-ar-" sound of some kind as "-aiee-". He wanted to play "cards" and it came out "cai-eeds". There are other, similar foibles in the lang…

1. Accents are evidence that the speaker did not fully acquire the phonology of the language. A French native speaker will speak English with a French accent because they haven't acquired the full English phonological inventory. Children who learn a language don't have this problem. 2. Children will learn colors and shapes just fine without explicit instruction. They do it all the time. In the pre-developed world, ch…

> 1. Accents are evidence that the speaker did not fully acquire the phonology of the language. A French native speaker will speak English with a French accent because they haven't acquired the full English phonological inventory. Children who learn a language don't have this problem.

True. But, referring to my earlier comment[0], this is a matter of changing language learning habits for adults, not a matter of ability.

> 2. Children will learn colors and shapes just fine without explicit instruction. They do it all the time.

Define "without explicit instruction". We explicitly read our children books that put a ton of emphasis on getting the words for colors, shapes and animals across (by repeating them over and over). We repeatedly ask our children questions such as "What color is this?", "What's that animal called?". If that is not teaching, I don't know what is.

> In the pre-developed world, children didn't get taught how to speak. There were no flash cards or toys for learning numbers. They just learned by observing.

Well, they certainly must have been listening, too, and their relatives must have pronounced the words for colors in the first place or otherwise they certainly would have never learned those words. But where do you draw the line here between "passive observing/listening" and "being taught"? To me, at the end of the day, these are all just different learning techniques and I don't see anything special in the way a child's brain acquires a language compared to an adult's.

> No one will passively acquire how to write.

Funny, I actually disagree here. I remember that, back in the day, my 4-year old cousin used to copy books verbatim, letter by letter, before he could actually read or write. (Where I'm using "write" in the sense that one puts letters on paper to form words and sentences and to articulate some meaning.) By the end of this whole process, my cousin knew how to read and write perfectly. And by that I mean: He was an absolute grammar nazi by the age of 6. Later, he would then go on to read dictionaries in foreign languages aloud, page by page, for hours while we were on vacation – just to annoy me. Today he speaks four languages absolutely fluently and he's at least somewhat proficient in another two.

Anyway, I'm sure my cousin once had to ask my aunt about the pronunciation of individual letters of the alphabet – to map them to the sounds he already knew – and probably also about words whose spelling differed a lot from their pronunciation. But if what he did is not "passively [acquiring] how to write" (and read), I don't know what is.

Then again, he put in massive amounts of time to accomplish what he might have learned much faster in elementary school.

> 4. Children make errors in production all the time. As they learn a language they make generalizations -- generalizations that actually make sense, like "mines" -- but which are considered "wrong" by adult speakers. They'll correct themselves over time without instruction.

Sure, as will adults. It's just that correcting them (whether a child or an adult) leads to much faster results and stops mistakes from becoming ingrained in their mind. Once again, it's a technique speeding up the learning process. (Which is why it's so helpful to have a native speaker correct you while you're learning a language.)

> You might want to check out reading Steven Pinker's "The Language Instinct," it has a lot of ideas and research that might be new to you.

Would you mind summarizing some of these ideas that, if I understand you correctly, undermine OP's (and – by extension – my own) argument?

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27917214

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#235
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting theory. But it cannot explain a few things. One of which is why children never have accents, and adult non-native speakers do. Another is that children do not need lessons to learn a language, and adults always do.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say by "children never have accents", but children do have accents, both the accent of whatever locality in which they live, as well as their own accents from not learning the language precisely. My 3-yr-ld son pronounces all words end in an "-ar-" sound of some kind as "-aiee-". He wanted to play "cards" and it came out "cai-eeds". There are other, similar foibles in the lang…

> "It's just easier for children". Yes, in a round about way, it is easier, but those reasons are purely social. Given that some adults do demonstrate the capacity to achieve fluency, yet are not living anywhere near a completely, 100% immersed life like a child does, there is clearly some natural advantage that adults have that makes up for the lack of nurture.

I like this argument, it puts it very succinctly!

On a completely different note, seeing that you're developing VR applications for learning languages: How is that coming along? Is Diplomatic Language Services already using it in production? And what improvements in learning/teaching compared to non-VR applications (and non-VR private classes) have you seen? I mean, I generally understand the appeal of VR but I hadn't heard of it in the context of language learning yet, so I'm wondering what the advantages might be since it's a purely visual thing, so a priori not necessarily more conducive to teaching a language(?)

PS: Now that I've seen you mention your alma mater on your website: What a coincidence – I once went to Shippensburg for one of my boxing fights! :) What a beautiful place!

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#236
post #231
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is hello world’ a minimal program? Yes Are all minimal programs ‘hello world’? No. Hello world is a straw man introduced by you - not the commenter I was relying to. As I pointed out, even if we consider hello world, the proposition is still not true - it’s not easier on a TI-89. So what do we have in summary? You spoiled the discussion by introducing personal attacks, your argument is a straw man, and even the straw…

You made several falsifiable claims that don't hold up, and you handled this by (a) editing your comment in a way that materially changed those claims (removed them and then in their place moved forward with a different argument that is necessarily at odds with what you originally wrote and removed), and (b) in the case of your most recent comment (when it was too late to edit the earlier), you ignored the straightfo…

You responded to my edit previously. You are bringing it up again instead of responding to my comment.

This doesn’t change anything about the discussion or explain why you keep leveling personal attacks and accusations.

You can plainly see what’s written, and complaining about an edit has nothing to do with the points I made.

Let’s consider again what we have in summary: You spoiled the discussion by introducing personal attacks for reasons that are not clear, your argument is a straw man, and even the straw man version is simply not true.

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say by "children never have accents", but children do have accents, both the accent of whatever locality in which they live, as well as their own accents from not learning the language precisely. My 3-yr-ld son pronounces all words end in an "-ar-" sound of some kind as "-aiee-". He wanted to play "cards" and it came out "cai-eeds". There are other, similar foibles in the lang…

> "It's just easier for children". Yes, in a round about way, it is easier, but those reasons are purely social. Given that some adults do demonstrate the capacity to achieve fluency, yet are not living anywhere near a completely, 100% immersed life like a child does, there is clearly some natural advantage that adults have that makes up for the lack of nurture. I like this argument, it puts it very succinctly! On a…

We're currently in trial phase, so we don't have a lot of results yet, but what we've built so far is based on existing research and the results we have seen are consistent with it. The research has shown significant results in various learning factors, primarily based in sensory engagement reinforcing neural pathways. I'm... not sure how much I can share about that research, as it was presented to us as proprietary information by a person we are hoping will be a research partner of ours in the near future. Though I will say, I'm quite proud of myself for having intuited most of the factors and built them into our design before we met them :)

The VR at the most basic level provides a context in which to learn the language. It's one thing to read a book about a place and learn the words associated with the people and culture of that place. It's another thing to stand in that place and see the thing you're talking about.

And we've all heard that full immersion is the "best" way to learn a language. But that's just not an obtainable goal for most people. As I said, most of our students are government employees. They work most of their time from the States or a US Military base. When they are put into a situation to use their language skills, it can often be at the last minute for a deployment of some kind. They're adults with careers, kids, houses, and not enough money to travel the world whenever they want. So the VR gets us closer on the "being there" scale than they'd get otherwise.

We're taking a different approach from our competitors in the market. There are a number of "VR" foreign language training apps that are basically just DuoLingo or Rosetta Stone in a 360 video (and in a few cases, we've seen people calling it VR even when there's no headset involved, sigh). You are meant to purchase a course that is solitaire and self-guided. They're all using speech recognition engines to judge pronunciation. That sounds like a great idea on the surface but turns out to be complete garbage in practice. Speech recognition engines only work about 95% of the time for fluent speakers, where the threshold for non-frustrating Human-Computer Interaction requires more like a 98% success rate. So you get into a problem of not knowing if the errors you detect are because the student isn't pronouncing the words correctly, or if the speech engine is not doing its job. Even worse, you get a lot of false positives as well, which gives students the illusion that they are progressing when they are not (I've actually done a fair amount of work with speech-oriented interfaces as well. My career has been... very broad).

In our case, we already have a successful business doing 1-on-1 language classes, so we've designed the application to fit into that. Also, I wanted to make sure that our instructor body didn't think we were trying to put them out of a job. Most of our students are in class for about 5 hours a day, two to three times a week, for about 3 months at a time. They spend that time 1-on-1 or 2-on-1 with a certified language instructor. Our VR app constitutes about 1 to 2 hours a week of that course, and it still involves your instructor. In this way, we avoid the pronunciation assessment issue that our competitors have entirely. But we are also providing a much more personalized experience for our students, as well.

We take imagery from Google StreetView, combine it with didactic content, and weave in narrative of taking a guided tour of the location with your instructor (I've even built a whole lesson editor that our curriculum developers are able to use on their own, so we're getting pretty fast at making new content, too). You discuss the place and maybe role-play a few interactions like renting a hotel room or buying food at a restaurant.

That's Phase 1. We are currently entering Phase 2, which involves different interaction metaphors and more interactive play for role-plays.

Even in traditional language instruction, there are concepts of "immersive" role-play, what are called "isoimmersions", which could be as complex as setting up a mock bank teller booth in a room or as simple as lining a bunch of chairs up and calling it a "bus". I see a lot of our product as taking that concept and making it not hokey. Cultural learning is also a big part of our training regimen, as it doesn't do a diplomat much good to learn Arabic without learning a specific region's dialect and culture.

In our own trials, we're seeing a very sizable increase in student engagement. The students are reporting and showing that they are more motivated to study. The instructors are also having fun with the project, which we think is significant. We have a pretty broad range of student level, but we're seeing improvement across the board. Even the seasoned students who are used to isoimmersions have discussed how the VR headset gives them a brand new perspective on the content.

Our team is basically me as head engineer, a junior developer, and a rotating roster of 3 language training specialists from whomever has time from fulfilling our regular work contracts.

As for Shippensburg... it's a nice place to visit. I don't miss it much. Gettysburg is a better town in that region.

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#239

It must be a horrible work of hackery to turn a smartphone based on iOS or Android into a useful device. Kudos to him. If he was able to do that, then development shouldn't put up much barriers anymore. I would totally buy him a decent PC though.

If you have Samsung Galaxy S8 onwards they actually make a fully functional PC once plugged into a monitor and keyboard.

You can even use the phone screen as a touchpad.

Samsung DeX is very underrated.

Re: Nepalese student learns HTML, JavaScript, CSS using just a mobile phone

#240

That "just a mobile phone" is a computer in small form factor and possibly more powerful than computers two decades ago. Especially on Android devices where you can run chrooted a full GNU/Linux environment, the only difficulty (but not a barrier) smartphones have for being used productively are the small display screens and the lack of keyboard.

Yeah I don't think anyone is under the impression that any smart phone is not powerful enough to do this, but have you actually tried development on a phone? Even with a keyboard this is masochistic.

Have you ever coded on a commodore 64 plugged into a CRT television via RF?

People adapt to what they have.

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