Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout • Hacker News Board

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#231

Post by NotSammyHagar » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #207

arcticbull wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you broadly, though would the J&J sample size not be about 21.4 million? 15 is just the number of adverse events right?

When we get into "total population" statistics, we kinda leave the realm of statistics lol. There's 15 documented adverse events, but we don't really know how many adverse events there were in total. If we simply study those 15 adverse events, then your population study is only those 15 events (with a hell-of-a-lot of selection bias). ---------- But I'm mostly thinking about how one person I know thinks: "Did you hea…

Sorry but I disagree. The key point is that over a very large population, millions, only 15 people got it. It's just wrong to say it was computed over only 15 people.

This study referenced up above had the ~285 or whatever people who answered the survey, not that much info. ~285/350 is not that much data.

Anecdotally and based on my own experience I'd agree that the burnout is high, probably over 50%.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#232

Post by ipnon » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

adhdsufferer wrote: post #220

This is just what it's like to work a repetitive desk job. I imagine it's similar for lawyers and accountants.

There is some misery inherent to sitting on the dark side of a sunny window for the privilege of doing it all again the next day.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#233

Post by SeanFerree » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

I am burnt out from all the unnecessary updates so I can understand why the developers would be burnt out as well

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#234

Post by ipnon » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

jquery wrote: post #66

I “retired” after 12 years of web development due to extreme burnout. I now work in a completely different industry and could not be happier. It felt like my workload was forever increasing. I could never rest on any laurels without falling significantly “behind”. I developed a major substance abuse problem as well (sober 14 months now), although untangling cause and effect here is impossible. I think I was abusing s…

Your very first submission! "Ask HN: how do you avoid burnout and getting taken advantage of?"[0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=939580

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#235

Post by NotSammyHagar » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

protonimitate wrote: post #47

briefcomment wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is maintenance the cause of burnout then?

For me burnout comes from the endless treadmill of external pressures (arbitrary deadlines, changing requirements) and the endless treadmill of development work. There's not really ever a chance to step back and take a breath - just constantly moving from one high priority task to the next. It's also a bit thankless, being good as this job, in a lot of cases, means you are moving really fast from one task to the next…

That's a great summary of why being a dev is hard and taxing and stressful. My job is all those thing. And because I switched jobs 6 months ago, I haven't built up that confidence of previous accomplishment.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#236

Post by spywaregorilla » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #207

arcticbull wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you broadly, though would the J&J sample size not be about 21.4 million? 15 is just the number of adverse events right?

When we get into "total population" statistics, we kinda leave the realm of statistics lol. There's 15 documented adverse events, but we don't really know how many adverse events there were in total. If we simply study those 15 adverse events, then your population study is only those 15 events (with a hell-of-a-lot of selection bias). ---------- But I'm mostly thinking about how one person I know thinks: "Did you hea…

> When we get into "total population" statistics, we kinda leave the realm of statistics lol.

Not even close to accurate.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#237

Post by NotSammyHagar » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

Volrath89 wrote: post #196

jnwatson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the undersold advantages about getting a new job is that all the implicit commitments you built up go away. Try it.

Yes but then in the new job you need to maintain other people's stuff, which is even harder that maintaining your own stuff. And over time you get to own that, including all the previous tech debt that you didn't create

And you don't have that kind of "previous work bank" of stuff you accomplished when something runs late, in a new job. And things always run late. In my new job they said here's this major piece of work. We already committed to it. 2 other teams and outside customers are expecting it. Can you do it in 2 months? I don't know, maybe, I guess? There's a great starting point, they said. Then it turned out to take 5 months. Everyone is mad at me, it was incredibly stressful, I worked 7 days a week. This is kind of a summary of the modern dev job.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#238

Post by Trasmatta » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #90

Spartan-S63 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think some of it comes from the expectations of how much time someone is productive in a day. It’s as if the expectation is that you spend all eight hours of the day making brush strokes on the canvas. It’s not practical and it’s exhausting, especially when you’re not feeling particularly motivated or just need time to think about the work ahead.

It's important for managers to plan time for design, testing, feedback, meetings, administrative tasks, and context switching. In places I've worked that has planned this well, we usually allocated somewhere around 4 hours of development work per day to someone. I think most burnout is systematic, and caused by incomplete task breakdowns.

> I think most burnout is systematic, and caused by incomplete task breakdowns.

As a counterpoint, I think burnout can contributed to by overly granular task breakdowns that remove individual developer creativity and autonomy.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#239

Post by Trasmatta » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

Spartan-S63 wrote: post #98

kube-system wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important for managers to plan time for design, testing, feedback, meetings, administrative tasks, and context switching. In places I've worked that has planned this well, we usually allocated somewhere around 4 hours of development work per day to someone. I think most burnout is systematic, and caused by incomplete task breakdowns.

I agree. I previously worked in an XP shop that spent seven hours a day doing pair programming. It was exhausting, and challenging to do non-dev work in the hour a day left. Especially as a team lead, it took a lot of extra time or carving out time away from the pair to get enough done. I also don’t know if full eight hour days are good, in general. I feel like 5x6 or 4x8 would be a better schedule, though, with a fo…

Also worked in an XP shop. Learned a lot, but worst dev job of my life. Full time pair programming is one of the worst ideas in software development in the last decade. It's unbelievably exhausting.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#240

Post by spywaregorilla » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #178

dragontamer wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the COVID19 stuff only has a population size (NOT EVEN sample size) of like, 15. Ex: J&J's blood clot issue. People make conclusions off of tinier sample sizes. There are plenty of scientific studies with just 50 or 100 people, but you need to keep the small numbers in mind. As long as sampling was done correctly, then small sample size won't matter much !!

I agree with you broadly, though would the J&J sample size not be about 21.4 million? 15 is just the number of adverse events right?

Yes that is correct. Perhaps not as a rigorous experiment, but at a high level yes.