Poll: How much do you make as a programmer? • Hacker News Board

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#231

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 8:34 PM UTC

bradfa wrote: post #213

chanux wrote: post #172

I'm on my first real job. I had no idea what to ask for and what I am really worth. I wasn't really desperate for a job but I only asked for something now seems too low (feels way too low after this thread). I screwed up in salary negotiation (Actually I didn't even negotiate.) Anyway what matters right now is I love the job and it's pretty much what I'd be doing even if I was on my own. There are times that economy…

I still work for my first employer after I graduated from college 6 years ago. I took their first salary offer without negotiation. I thought it was a good offer and I didn't know any better. Turns out, I could have asked for 10% more and still been in their range. In the 6 years I've been with the company, I've gotten a good number of raises. I now make 39% more than I did 6 years ago. Due to the recession, some har…

I've made at least 30% to 50% increases every time I jumped from job to job, and never stayed at a job more than a year.

You'll very rarely wind up getting as much in raises when you continue working for the same company year after year, unless you manage to get constantly promoted or are lucky enough to find yourself working for a startup that makes it big (and doesn't screw its shareholding employees over like Skype did).

Of course, eventually I might price myself out of the market. But I don't know when that "eventual" point will be for me, as I don't think I've yet reached the peak of my career.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#232

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 8:42 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #190

matthodan wrote: post #103

I wish I could compare this curve to comp in finance. It seems like a lot of money until you realize PE firms/hedge funds/banks are offering fresh MBAs +$200K a year. I'm not saying finance is better, it's just a data point to put things in perspective.

I hear the hours can get even more ridiculous in finance, and you have to live with new york weather. How do they get those offers from those firms?

The hours can get ridiculous, but they vary from company to company. Also, the hours usually get a lot better as you gain seniority.

On the other hand, you do have to put up with being surrounded by people who pretty much live to make money, and think about nothing but work and making more money.

Though that might not be so different than Silicon Valley.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#233

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 8:54 PM UTC

JunkDNA wrote: post #229

gnosis wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The drug companies convince foreign governments to let them charge more because they say it costs a lot to develop the drugs." It's kind of funny that they say that, since they're effectively heavily subsidized by the US government -- because virtually all of the basic research in the US (and in the world) is funded by the US government. Pharmaceutical companies get to use the fruits of all that basic research for f…

Even accepting the premise that drug companies are dependent on all the basic research, it's but a tiny fraction of what goes into making an actual drug . Just because you know the basic biological reasons for a disease doesn't mean squat to making a chemical entity that you can give to a human being. The whole process of designing something that has actual efficacy while at the same time not injuring the patient is…

"it's but a tiny fraction of what goes into making an actual drug"

I think it's the other way around. To make drugs you have to know chemistry and biology (not to mention the dependence on various tools and techniques which have their origins in various materials sciences, electronics, math, statistics, etc), sciences which were and still are almost entirely based on and advanced by basic research. Without this knowledge, these tools, and these techniques the pharmacutical industry would be nowhere. Furthermore, many commercial drugs are based directly on discoveries made by researchers working in university settings and funded by the US government.

Of course, after all of that, the drug companies still do their own research and pay various fees to get the drugs on the market. So it's not like they contribute nothing to the process -- and obviously the process is still very expensive. But it doesn't erase the fact that the entire pharmaceutical industry is still effectively heavily subsidized by the US government.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#234

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 9:11 PM UTC

alexitosrv wrote: post #119

Symbiont wrote: post #20

Here in Brazil, I get paid approximately 11k brazillian reais.. Translating to U.S. dollars that would be 7k. These numbers are really impressive to me.

I'm from Colombia, and currently I get paid around 20k USD yearly. I have more than 5 years of professional experience, and degrees in computer engineering, and a master in computer science. For someone as me, those numbers are astounding.

These numbers would probably be much higher were not a lot of the jobs outsourced to countries where the prevailing wages were much lower.

They'd also probably be significantly higher if the computer field was strongly unionized.

The other interesting thing is that these wages pale in comparison to what the founders of an investors in successful startups make, not to mention CEOs, CTOs, various executives, members of the board, etc.

Also, if the survey had been limited to certain industries, like finance, and certain areas of the country (like Silicon Valley and Manhattan) the averages would probably be a lot higher. Though I do suspect that this survey was probably answered mostly by programmers in the technology industry in Silicon Valley.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#235

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 9:18 PM UTC

Tharkun wrote: post #186

This poll is meaningless with an international audience.

I would bet that the respondents were mostly from the US, and mostly from the technology industry in Silicon Valley.

However, it would certainly have been a much more meaningful poll were if there was some demographic information (location, sex, age) along with information on industry, experience, and job description.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#236

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 9:23 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #101

Shenglong wrote: post #93

Are salaries generally higher at big companies (google/twitter/fb) or at startups?

You'd expect salaries at startups to be lower, but they often include equity.

Equity which has a pretty good chance of being totally worthless, even if you're lucky enough not to work for a company that will screw over its shareholding employees, like Skype did.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#237

Post by JunkDNA » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 9:24 PM UTC

gnosis wrote: post #233

JunkDNA wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even accepting the premise that drug companies are dependent on all the basic research, it's but a tiny fraction of what goes into making an actual drug . Just because you know the basic biological reasons for a disease doesn't mean squat to making a chemical entity that you can give to a human being. The whole process of designing something that has actual efficacy while at the same time not injuring the patient is…

"it's but a tiny fraction of what goes into making an actual drug" I think it's the other way around. To make drugs you have to know chemistry and biology (not to mention the dependence on various tools and techniques which have their origins in various materials sciences, electronics, math, statistics, etc), sciences which were and still are almost entirely based on and advanced by basic research. Without this knowl…

Having spent over 8 years doing drug R&D I can tell you that it is most certainly not the other way around. The specific kind of chemistry you need to develop a drug (a discipline known as medicinal chemistry) is exclusively practiced inside pharmaceutical companies. The academic research in the field is paltry. Without a compound, all e basic bio in the world is useless.

By your logic though, aren't all technology companies subsidized by the federal government? Don't companies like Intel and IBM use various discoveries from academia to make their products? Aren't all software companies essentially benefitting from government funded research into computer networking, language design, etc... Where do you draw the line?

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#238

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 9:27 PM UTC

jasonkostempski wrote: post #181

Damn, I'm average. Does the 101K+ crowd care to share what industry/stack/niche you work with? Hints acceptable :)

Finance, particularly in Manhattan, and technology in Silicon Valley. Also, independent consultants frequently make far more money than employees.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#239

Post by gnosis » Fri, Jul 15, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

JunkDNA wrote: post #237

gnosis wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it's but a tiny fraction of what goes into making an actual drug" I think it's the other way around. To make drugs you have to know chemistry and biology (not to mention the dependence on various tools and techniques which have their origins in various materials sciences, electronics, math, statistics, etc), sciences which were and still are almost entirely based on and advanced by basic research. Without this knowl…

Having spent over 8 years doing drug R&D I can tell you that it is most certainly not the other way around. The specific kind of chemistry you need to develop a drug (a discipline known as medicinal chemistry) is exclusively practiced inside pharmaceutical companies. The academic research in the field is paltry. Without a compound, all e basic bio in the world is useless. By your logic though, aren't all technology c…

"Having spent over 8 years doing drug R&D I can tell you that it is most certainly not the other way around. The specific kind of chemistry you need to develop a drug (a discipline known as medicinal chemistry) is exclusively practiced inside pharmaceutical companies."

You still have to know basic organic and inorganic chemistry, and math and statistics. All fields to which the pharmaceutical industry contributes absolutely nothing.

"Without a compound, all e basic bio in the world is useless."

But many of the compounds pharmaceutical companies use are based directly and indirectly on breakthroughs in basic research. And that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the debt the pharmaceutical industry owes to the fundamental understanding of the human body (and that of animals) that came from basic research.

"By your logic though, aren't all technology companies subsidized by the federal government?"

Absolutely. There's a huge debt corporations the world over owe to the fruits of research funded almost exclusively by the government.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#240

Post by tripzilch » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 7:35 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #203

sshumaker wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. When doing hiring, I've always mentally divided developers into different categories than you've been suggesting: - 65k (entry-level) - under 100k (intermediate, or junior with a lot of promise) - 100-125 - most of my hires have been in this range - mid-level, talented, solid programmers - 150k+ - 'lead' / superstar level. It's very rare to find candidates that meet this level. Beyond 150-200k range, mos…

I'm amazed at what people in the US earn. Seems like the Netherlands is a developing country after all. I'm rather certain that my employer rates me in at least what you describe as the "under 100k" range, but I earn 40k euros per year. Do you guys all go on holidays to Latin America 3x per year? And have six broadscreen TVs? And villas with seaside views? Or is a 1 liter bottle of coke just also 10$ in the US?

hee skrebbel! :D

see this http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7413/2008usincomedistribu...

I had to massage a whole bunch of numbers from bls.gov to get this histogram (huge list of annual income per county per occupation group), it's not exactly the kind of data they like to publish :)

Of course this is 2008, mostly before the recession. Would be interesting to see if they got new data and how it changed.

And this is for all occupation groups, computer programmers are of course on the higher end of this graph.

And yeah, depending on where you are in the US, things you'd expect to be cheap in the supermarkets here generally tend to be a bit more expensive. Also because they always list the prices excluding VAT [in most states]. If they list the prices correctly, or at all. And actually charge you the same amount at the checkout. Outside of supermarkets, prices seem reasonable, until you find you need to pay 15-20% in tips because waiting staff doesn't get minimum wage [in most states] and it's up to the customers to make sure they don't starve. So yeah, not very developed after all :-) [also: healthcare. unless you're rich you get none. half the people on the street walk around with visible ailments of some kind. but I'm getting OT]

A bottle of coke, however, is much, much cheaper than over here. Also, bigger.

groetjes

- ritz