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Apology

felleisen.org

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Re: Apology

#231

Post by [deleted] »

barnabees wrote: post #11
howolduis wrote: post #8

apology? nothing of what I read sounds like an apology. You basically said that your friends told you that what you did looked bad, and based on that, you feel sorry that he "felt" hurt. Then go on saying how good and gracious you were to him? c'mon... edit: typo

If this isn't a real apology then what would you say a real apology looks like? Of the many public apologies I've read in the past this reads like an honest, genuine one. He admitted guilt, explained what he did wrong and did not try to justify it, and clearly stated that he apologizes. What's missing?

[deleted]

Re: Apology

#232

Post by wpietri »

neolog wrote: post #90
wpietri wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the sense of asking forgiveness from $DEITY, sure. But in the sense of saying to the person harmed, "Please forgive me," I think it's very broad.

I dunno

I suggest you look up the research on this.

Re: Apology

#233

Post by RogerL »

WalterBright wrote: post #196
dTal wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of this comment? That crying is wimpy and that it's fine to abuse multiple young adults to the point of tears because it's their fault for "taking offense"? We are not talking about whether tears are a sensible and productive response. We are talking about whether it is reasonable to tolerate someone who consistently provokes them. Perhaps both sides need to take some responsibility, but redirecting…

1. Don't allow other people to control your feelings. 2. Be forgiving of people who do not mean offense, but are simply inept at the social graces. It's not that hard. You get to choose whether to be offended or not. Choose the not. BTW, sometimes I listen to celebrities when they deal with hecklers trying to get under their skin. It's fun to watch how they parry the verbal knives. I recall Prince Phillip once being…

In your comment, in response to what should be done, you replied "just [stuff the victim should do]'. That strongly implies that that is all that should be done. Very different message then is you had started with "One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is [the rest of your message]"

I suspect you are being misread due to that word choice, but to be honest I am not quite sure.

Re: Apology

#234

Post by nojokes »

blagie wrote: post #212
goto11 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard from people close to him that that's just the way he is and you have to get used to it. Perhaps, but usually bullies are only bullies when they are in a position of power and are perfectly capable of behaving different to people who have power over them. How often to you hear about employees calling their boss and screaming at the boss at 3 in the morning? Strangely this rarely happens. > What if not und…

I know a lot of people like that. I'm from a culture which is perceived as abrasive, harsh, critical, and aggressive in the US. That goes up, down, and sideways. We're often perceived as bullies until we learn to code-switch. African Americans get a pass here, since most people are familiar enough with African American culture and mannerisms to know how (or at least that) people use language differently, body languag…

May you reveal what culture is it?

Re: Apology

#235

Post by nojokes »

undecisive wrote: post #206
slibhb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really thoughtful comment, especially considering your personal experience. There's a hard problem here: what should be done with people who interact poorly with others but are talented and driven? I don't know, but exiling them seems like a shame. Training them to play nice may not be possible. A reasonable option may be recognizing that some talented people are "difficult" and providing students with a pa…

I desperately want to agree with this, but something sticks at the back of my mind: This is not acceptable behaviour. The way we define acceptable behaviour changes from circumstance to circumstance. What's acceptable for Steve Jobs isn't acceptable for the guy at the window of McDonald's (either side of that window). That's maybe just the way it is - but it probably isn't right. But what if everyone around this guy…

It is also not acceptable for Steve Jobs but they can get away with it.

Re: Apology

#236

Post by nirui »

EGreg wrote: post #135
throw3456548 wrote: post #129

Huh. It's interesting to see this come out now. Years ago I was planning on entering a PL PhD program until I met Felleisen. He yelled at me, insulted me, and I left nearly crying. That was the last straw that led to me leave academia, and I never came back. A young woman I know switched out of her computer science major after taking his class and said she still had nightmares about him. Another person I know worked…

I met Richard Stallman’s lawyer several years ago, having made an appointment with him to discuss our open source framework, Qbix. Eben Moglen had a nice office near Lincoln Center in NYC. Somehow on the way to the office, he had taken a look at our site and mistook something on it... by the time I arrived, he spent the entire time yelling at me and berating whatever he could find out about me. A very strange charact…

> all in all it was a productive meeting

Maybe this is the reason. Some people are Result-driven, and would take anything "appreciate" to get the result. Even when the word "appreciate" is at it's lowest standard (Like, "The goal is reached, and no body is dead/jailed because of my action").

I said that because I'm a Result-driven person myself. And I (and many others, not rare, really) have this sociopathic ability to completely disconnect myself from other people's emotions while still remain rational. In that mode, I'm capable to say and do a lots of awful things without feeling even a slightest of guilt, in fact, I wouldn't feel anything emotional (That is, I can be yelling while completely emotionless). Of course, I can switch it back and immediately become empathic. For me, it's all by choice.

Trying to put myself into his shoes, I guess maybe he thinks it's OK because "Things still gets done", maybe it's a compatibility test on whether or not he will still be "Accepted" after all that, or maybe it's a warning to show the bar of his tolerance.

Personally, I wouldn't think too much of it, because the goal is reached (Oh wait...)

Re: Apology

#237

Post by JohnHaugeland »

bobthechef wrote: post #122
mvid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matthew made it pretty clear he had talked to a number of people, and waited months before going public

But did he speak with Matthias directly first? There is an adult way to escalate problems which is to first speak privately with the person in question to address the problem or correct the misunderstanding. If that fails, you could speak with people in the relevant social circle shared with Matthias. Dragging your problem into the public square is only something you do if those fail AND there are sufficiently good r…

Instead of "just asking questions," then using that to make commentary that doesn't make sense because you don't know what's happening, try becoming familiar with the situation

Re: Apology

#238

Post by ampdepolymerase »

nojokes wrote: post #234
blagie wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of people like that. I'm from a culture which is perceived as abrasive, harsh, critical, and aggressive in the US. That goes up, down, and sideways. We're often perceived as bullies until we learn to code-switch. African Americans get a pass here, since most people are familiar enough with African American culture and mannerisms to know how (or at least that) people use language differently, body languag…

May you reveal what culture is it?

Form their description, most likely one of the Slavic branches.

Re: Apology

#239

Post by wpietri »

bobthechef wrote: post #122
mvid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matthew made it pretty clear he had talked to a number of people, and waited months before going public

But did he speak with Matthias directly first? There is an adult way to escalate problems which is to first speak privately with the person in question to address the problem or correct the misunderstanding. If that fails, you could speak with people in the relevant social circle shared with Matthias. Dragging your problem into the public square is only something you do if those fail AND there are sufficiently good r…

It sounds like you don't have much experience dealing with abusers. I'd suggest reading, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men". Abusers will use private approaches like that as another opportunity to berate and dominate. Indeed, if you read the addenda to Butterick's piece, you'll see that Felleisen approached him privately and with "a strange mix of concilliation and hostility". That is also typical of abusers.

Your "adult" approach only works if the other person is also behaving as an "adult". Felleisen gave no indication to Butterick that he was capable of working at that level. If Felleisen wanted feedback, he could have signaled that.

Further, in the context of a project like this, bringing the behavior up to the people running it is generally a good place to start. The behaviors acceptable in a community are determined by the community. What Butterick learned was that abuse from Felleisen was considered normal and acceptable, and that the community would protect Felleisin over Butterick. In that circumstance, there's little point to approaching the abusive person because they already know they can keep doing what they want.

Re: Apology

#240

Post by abz10 »

CleverLikeAnOx wrote: post #185
abz10 wrote: post #133

I wonder how much of personality is genetic and largely out of the control of the person. I know mine is. I have two separate anxiety mutations - basically high functioning autism. I often find myself accidentally offending people. I preemptively cancelled myself as a precaution long ago. It seems society has decided that some traits are innate and deserving of understanding and others are not.

How does one preemptively cancel oneself?

I quit my BigTech job and all social media. Something I said was misinterpreted as condescending to a female colleague and I was reprimanded by HR. Within a year she made the same complaint against everyone else in the office but by that time I had already left.
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