Why we should end the data economy • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#231

Post by TchoBeer » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #174

nINYqGQadl wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this list makes a case for better sharing/access controls but I can see applications for most of the things listed here. I might just want the insights for myself but not want to share it with anyone or my data being sold without my consent e.g. monitor and improve my sleeping habits, monitor my expenditure by tracking my restaurant and shopping habits, my health data and/or insights into it. Maybe not your s…

don't track/collect data Only two of your examples (parental controls and location sharing) require any kind of network, and those could be done with a private VPN running at home. The design of cloud-based services is purely for convenience and collection. Sometimes if the collection can be controlled, the convenience is worth it, but every beneficial algorithm could be run locally.

The funny thing is that the rise of cloud computing coincides with the rise of really powerful cheap personal computation, you'd think it would be the opposite.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#232

Post by cevered » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

Jwarder wrote: post #190

cevered wrote: post #57

I highly suggest you guys checkout Decentr. They are building blockchain platform that allows individuals to have ownership over their personal data to exchange and leverage for economic benefits in a decentralized and secure way. I think it's false to say we can't collect data in a secure way therefore stop the data economy. We should be seeking to empower individuals with the ownership of their own data to create a…

How paranoid should I be of a browser plug-in that promises to track every interaction I make and provide that data for advertiser targeting?

All of your data is stored in an encrypted wallet/ID via decentralized storage solutions. Only you have access to your data and control over your data via a private key like a crypto wallet.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#233

Post by zikduruqe » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

saddlerustle wrote: post #210

rootusrootus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the problem is merely Facebook, Google, or Apple, then I think you are underestimating the amount of data and who is processing it. There is an entire industry of companies you have never heard of that are thinking up ever more creative ways to put data together from various sources, identify it, correlate it, and then sell the 'insights' to whoever wants to pay. At the very least, at a bare minimum, I t…

Which company, apart from Facebook, Google and Apple, would remotely have access to any of the data on that list? Facebook Google and Apple don't share data with data brokers.

You cellular company has first party signal data, that even the big tech companies don't have.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#234

Post by fuckyouriotshit » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #191

shkkmo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst thing about the information economy of today is absolutely the inequality of access. We would be better off if everything that is collected was public. I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. The problem is when privacy is only available to the rich and powerful, while the details about the rest of us are hoarded and used by the very same powerful people who pay such a premi…

>I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. >but that doesn't mean we should allow everything to be collected. Why ?

> I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value.

You have either _never_ had to keep a secret (which I highly doubt, unless you happen to be a literal child) or you simply aren't arguing in good faith.

Assuming that you are arguing in good faith, let's consider a potential reason why someone might value their privacy:

Some people are born attracted to the same-sex (gay, lesbian, bi, pan, etc.).

There are some countries where being gay is a criminal offense; there are even some countries where you can face the death penalty for this. [1]

If a gay person lives in one of those countries, don't they have a right to keep this fact about themselves private simply in order to protect themselves? Or does their life have less value than the profit that can be generated by the "Data Economy"?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosex...

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#235

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #171

asiachick wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. If you ask me "who lives next door" I'll tell you "Oh, the Smith's live next door, John, Jane, Jill, and Jacob. John's a blacksmith, Jane makes the best apple pie, Jill is studying to be a doctor and Jacob just turned 14" I doubt the forefathers would have thought there needed to be a law against me passing on info.

The US Constitution is around a century too old to care about lists of people, but I think even they would react badly to some powerful organization going around classifying everybody by some random feature.

Domesday Book commissioned in 1085, Constitution of USA 1787; I think you mean at least 700 years.

I mean the Bible tells us about censuses by the Romans ~5BC, so depending what's in your list ...

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#236

Post by decasteve » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

saddlerustle wrote: post #210

rootusrootus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the problem is merely Facebook, Google, or Apple, then I think you are underestimating the amount of data and who is processing it. There is an entire industry of companies you have never heard of that are thinking up ever more creative ways to put data together from various sources, identify it, correlate it, and then sell the 'insights' to whoever wants to pay. At the very least, at a bare minimum, I t…

Which company, apart from Facebook, Google and Apple, would remotely have access to any of the data on that list? Facebook Google and Apple don't share data with data brokers.

Akamai and Microsoft.

When your Apple device communicates with "Apple", many/most of those IP addresses are owned by Akamai.

Even when you search DuckDuckGo, both the search results (Bing) and web servers that serve the content are owned by Microsoft (Azure).

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#237

Post by fuckyouriotshit » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

lanstin wrote: post #230

jeffreygoesto wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. It is not the data itself that has value. It is a game of information asymmetry and that corporations can make you desire things you wouldn't desire without that interaction. They then convert a fraction of that desire into money flowing from you to them that you otherwise would have kept. Maybe I am old school or too naive, but I don't see how I would make a personal margin with my own data.

If you had a clear list of "these sort of news items/OC from friends makes me more susceptible to being convinced by questionable ideas/donate money/stay up at night." then you could perhaps take steps to preserve your ability to stay more rational, more the way you want yourself to be and less easy to manipulate by ads/partisans/etc.

That sounds like it would be very useful, but doesn't really have a (monetary) "value" in the sense that most people use when talking about sharing the profits of the Data Economy.

It'd be much more interesting to see that sort of data sharing/access occurring than simply saying that people are entitled to some percentage of the profit that was "generated using their data" (which would be highly susceptible to creative accounting).

Preserving the privacy of individuals would still be challenging though.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#238

Post by TchoBeer » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #219

saddlerustle wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which company, apart from Facebook, Google and Apple, would remotely have access to any of the data on that list? Facebook Google and Apple don't share data with data brokers.

Dating sites would have that kind of data and have been breached in the past (Ashley Madison was one high profile instance, as I recall).

I've somehow never heard of this, that's a wild story.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#239

Post by agumonkey » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

Isn't the data economy a sign of the end of the economical ladder ? we have nothing new to sell ..

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#240

Post by awillen » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #204

awillen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's lazy when it doesn't come with a proposal to replace the stuff that you want to burn down. It's like the US tax code... it is insanely complicated and in a lot of ways doesn't serve the public well (because rich folks can use the complexity of it to escape taxation), so it's easy and popular to say let's just get rid of it and start with a new, simple tax code. The problem is it got to be the way it is for a rea…

>We want to incentivize people to own homes and buy electric cars and a thousand other things, and we use the tax code to do that. [If we want] to incentivize... While it's true that incentivization necessitates tax code complexity, we don't all agree on the necessity of incentivization in the first place.

Sure - that's absolutely fair. But with that said, I do think that a lot of people would agree that a lot of the incentives are good (I for one am glad that the government is trying to get people to move to electric cars) and would want to maintain something to keep promoting the same things even if the tax code were restarted from scratch.